worldsoccer
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Reged: 08/06/2006
Posts: 237
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This month Rafa Benitez and Barry Fry disagree over whether Premier League clubs should be allowed to field reserve teams in the Football League.
The article can be found here:
http://www.worldsoccer.com/bigissue/
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righteous1
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Reged: 16/03/2007
Posts: 553
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As a fan of Liverpool, and my home town club Peterborough United, I am in quite a unique position here!
I have to say (and this is very rare!) that I agree with Barry Fry. The big premiership clubs already have a massive advantage over the rest because of champions league money, gate money, shirt sales etc, letting their kids (who they often nick from smaller clubs around Europe and the world), play in the lower division would just widen the gap between rich and poor.
I can see where Rafa is coming from, and I don't think he is proposing this idea from a purely selfish perspective, he genuinely thinks that the system of bringing young players through in this country needs a major shake up. He may be right about that, but I don't think this is a fair solution.
If the big clubs are so worried about young players not getting chances in their teams, then they shouldn't steal them from their smaller local clubs in the first place. At Peterborough we had Matthew Etherington, Simon Davies and Luke Steele, all left at a very young age. Etherington and Davies to Spurs had mixed success, Etherington having to leave to get regular football, Davies upset by injury, would they have been better staying at Posh for another year or two? who knows.
Steele is a young goalkeeper signed by Man Utd, his career is seemingly going nowhere at present, he has played very few games other than a loan spell at Coventry, its fair to say had he stayed at Posh he may have clocked up 200 league games by now, and be a better player for it.
So my message to Rafa is simple, if you want the best young players from lower division clubs, don't buy them and stick them in the reserves, buy them and loan them back to the lower league teams, or don't buy them at all.
I agree with Barry about the passionate support in the lower leagues. In Spain, the crowds in the second division and lower are pitiful in size compared to the lower divisions in England, and that goes for the rest of Europe also. We don't want meaningless matches that are only there to make Liverpool, Man Utd, or Chelsea have a better team in the future. We want matches that matter, thats what will improve the young players, going on loan to a team fighting against relegation, or a team looking for promotion. They will be playing under real pressure and in front of noisy crowds. This will surely make them better players, as Rafa desires, without de-valuing the Football League. It will be a sad day in my opinion if the biggest game in The Championship is Man Utd B vs Chelsea B.
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big_gaz
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Reged: 25/03/2007
Posts: 29
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I agree with pretty much all of that, righteous1. As a Liverpool fan myself I'm staggered at the inability of the Academy to produce a single first team regular in the last few years. But I don't think it's the fault of the Reserve league that the club is struggling to produce top class homegrown talent - other clubs like Man City and Blackburn can, and their reserves play in the same league as Liverpool's.
Arguably 18 league games isn't enough, particularly if it means a mass exodus of Premiership reserves every March, influencing promotion and relegation across several divisions. The loan system may not be as harmful as allowing B teams into the Football League but it still has the potential to distort the balance and competitiveness of the lower leagues.
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righteous1
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Reged: 16/03/2007
Posts: 553
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Quote:
But I don't think it's the fault of the Reserve league that the club is struggling to produce top class homegrown talent - other clubs like Man City and Blackburn can, and their reserves play in the same league as Liverpool's.
I think the problem is that the squads of the top clubs are now so large that kids have to be really top class just to get a chance. Look at how many players Arsenal have, they sign all of the best young players from around the world at age 16-20, or as many as they can, as well as older proven professionals, they send dozens of players out on loan, and still their reserves are good enough to get to the Carling Cup final.
Liverpool are beginning to go the same way with Rafa signing alot of young players in the last year. If I was a 17 year old now deciding who to sign a professional contract with (i wish!) you would have to look at Middlesbrough, Man City etc as realistic alternatives to the top clubs because of the chances you get, but that just doesn't happen. They all have agents and sign for the clubs they 'support', or who have the most money to offer them.
Liverpool have won the youth cup last year, and are in the final again this year, but there is no sign of any of those players getting a run in the first team. They have 12 out on loan at the moment, with no doubt more going next season. Stephen Warnock is a good example, there are not many better English left backs than him about, as he has shown since joining Blackburn, but he had to leave to get a game because we have Riise, Aurelio etc etc.
Only the real stars, the Owen's & Gerrard's, are going to come through the system at the top clubs as it is at present. On paper this should improve the England team, as only the best kids come through and improve working with top coaches and players, but it doesn't seem to be going like that at the moment!
I am not one who subscribes to the view that England are poor because of th influx of foreign players though. We didn't qualify for the 1974 or 1978 world cups, there were virtually no foreign players in England then, so it makes no sense as a valid argument.
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lazyyzal05
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Reged: 04/04/2007
Posts: 3
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Rafa just loan your players out!.
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big_gaz
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Reged: 25/03/2007
Posts: 29
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I think what Rafa's really saying is that the Academy isn't coming up with the goods, but he doesn't want to be seen as criticising Heighway. If there were 1 or 2 lads coming through each season who were ready for 1st team action I don't think he'd have said what he did. I also think he's looking to justify the policy of signing young foreign players, which Heighway has expressed unhappiness about.
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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To be frank,I am caught in two minds. I can see either side of the divide and I have got to accept that I am on the fence here. Let me try and puzzle out a solution to this "strife".
What Rafael Benitez says about starting top clubs' reserve teams in the lower leagues is not at all selfish. With the passage of time,Rafa has learnt to accept as well as respect the football buffs in England and I know that he's genuinely concerned about the lack of a large number of top quality players coming through the ranks in England. Most of the players in the reserves in the top teams in England are young and do have some potential(otherwise they won't all all be on the reserves). What they need at this stage is match practice,regular football and sustainence of confidence which they often are starved of at the bigger clubs. So these players need to be loaned out into the lower leagues.
But would starting reserves sides of the Premiership clubs who can afford them in the lower tiers of the footballingfamily in England help? Yes,it will. You need to absorb this fact once and for all:that the players on the reserves for the Chelseas,Man Uniteds or Arsenals are better than those playing for,say Peterborough(sorry to have hurt you) or Oxford United or whatever. To lift the players' ability and raise the standards of the youth set-up in the country,you must try and give maximum opportunity to these players. True,they may be loaned out to some of teh lower clubs but it's obvious that the facilities at most of these clubs are far from what those at the top Premiership clubs and this element too does play a huge role in the development of these kids. So starting reserve teams won't that bad an idea.
I don't have a great idea whether the lower leagues are as competitive as Mr. Barry made them out to be but the 'invasion' of the bigger English clubs into the football league would certainly help improve the standards of the leagues and even satisfy the footballing hunger of the top kids in the country.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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Quote:
So my message to Rafa is simple, if you want the best young players from lower division clubs, don't buy them and stick them in the reserves, buy them and loan them back to the lower league teams, or don't buy them at all.
The first clause of your statement is perfct. Buy the young kids from the lowertier clubs and loan them back. This will certainly help improve their game and has been described as a successful means to develop young talents in Spain who otherwise would struggle to make a breakthrough at the bigger clubs. BUt your second clause sounds so so naive. Well,if Liverpool don't go and get X from that third division side,then Man U will and if Man U don't,then Chelsea will. That's how it works in football,or rather in the business part of it. If you are a 17 year old football aspirant playing for an obscure little club in the south west of England and the out of the blue,the likes of Man U or Arsenal come knocking at your doors,you do find it really so very,very tough to refuse the offer,even when you know that you might find life in a bigger pool too tough for your constitution.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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righteous1
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Reged: 16/03/2007
Posts: 553
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Quote:
BUt your second clause sounds so so naive. Well,if Liverpool don't go and get X from that third division side,then Man U will and if Man U don't,then Chelsea will. That's how it works in football,or rather in the business part of it. If you are a 17 year old football aspirant playing for an obscure little club in the south west of England and the out of the blue,the likes of Man U or Arsenal come knocking at your doors,you do find it really so very,very tough to refuse the offer,even when you know that you might find life in a bigger pool too tough for your constitution.
With respect Sub, as a football fan who lives in England and has been going to games for 15 years, I don't think I am naive. I also think I am in a more educated position than you to discuss the lower reaches of the English leagues, as you yourself have said you have limited knowledge of this arena.
Of course I know that if Liverpool don't sign that kid from League 2, then someone else will, my point was that if all the managers of the top clubs are REALLY concerned about development of young players in England, and not their own interests, then they wouldn't sign young players so early, they would let them develop. There are many examples of young players going to big clubs too young, and then having to go back down the leagues to rebuild their careers.
I also disagree that the reserves of the premiership is a much higher standard than the football league. Yes there are better players, but football is not just about player quality, it is about coping under pressure. There is no pressure in the reserves because there is no crowd, little to aim for and teams are a ramshackle mixture of players coming back from injury, trialists, young players hoping to break through, and squad players playing out their careers.
The football league may not be to the highest standard, but it is competitive (just look at the league tables and see how tight they are throughout), and the games are high pressure because the stakes are massive compared to a reserve game. That is why Rafa (and Wenger, Mourinho, etc etc) wants his young players playing in the league and not in the reserves.
The scenario here is that that the big boys may need the football league, but the football league is doing very nicley as it is thanks, and doesn't need them, other than to sign players on loan, which the big boys are only too happy to do. This is they way it should continue.
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badgerboy
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Reged: 26/03/2007
Posts: 727
Loc: Bucks, England
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I have to come down on Barry Fry's side in this argument too.
I must confess I don't follow the reserve league set up enough to know the quality of the teams or the football played there. But couldn't a lot of Rafa's concerns be addressed by a reform in the set up of that league alone. Make the reserve league primarily for young players (under 21) with a maximum of two senior professionals allowed (simply to allow match practice for first-teamers returning from injury). And for match practice against "men" then loans to clubs playing in the Championship & other leagues seems to be the best answer. And if there aren't enough clubs in England with enough quality "youth players" to create a competitive league how about more matches against continental opposition?
For me there is one really "big issue" that in a way links both last month's question & this one's. Are the "big clubs" being allowed to buy players too young?
Last month we talked about Platini's plans to "tweak" the CL format to give more teams a chance to compete. The problem is - any amount of playing with the format isn't really going to make more teams "competitive" - it's only going to allow more teams to "take part".
Look at a player like Ben Sahar - who played as a substitute for Israel against England at age 17. He's already in Chelsea's reserves when it would surely be healthier for the European game - & perhaps for the player himself, who knows - if he first had the chance to develop his skills at his original club - Hapoel Tel Aviv. The same could be said further down the pyramid. Hearts - hardly a European giant - are able to attract "Romanian wonderkid" Dumitru Copil straight from the Romanian third division.
Seriously - what hope have top clubs in places like Romania & Israel got of seriously competing with the top European clubs when they can't even get a season or two of their best young players?
This month we see the issue of young players from a "domestic perspective".
And we find that - once the big clubs have snaffled all these good young players (from home & abroad) they don't know what to do with them.
So maybe my question should be rephrased: "Even if the rules allow them to - are the big clubs choosing to buy players too young?
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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Quote:
Of course I know that if Liverpool don't sign that kid from League 2, then someone else will, my point was that if all the managers of the top clubs are REALLY concerned about development of young players in England, and not their own interests, then they wouldn't sign young players so early, they would let them develop. There are many examples of young players going to big clubs too young, and then having to go back down the leagues to rebuild their careers.
I also disagree that the reserves of the premiership is a much higher standard than the football league.
Points:
a) All the managers in top flight English football are NOT concerned about the development of youth football in the country except when it is in their own self-invested interests. I don't anticipate a Jose Mourinho under pressure to win all the competitions in a single season to try and excavate an English player in the lower reaches of the footballing strata in the country.
b)Here we are(at least I am)not talking about all the Premiership clubs going out and playing their reserve teams in theFootball League. I am talking about the top four or five teams,the likes of Man U and Liverpool and Chelsea,playing their younger players.
And I am sincerely sorry if I have irritated you by labelling you as "naive". I said that with all due respect to you. True,I am speaking as an outsider and have limited knowledge in this field but we are here to discuss the options and discuss football,aren't we,not to proclaim ourselves as the best of the lot?
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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righteous1
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Reged: 16/03/2007
Posts: 553
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Quote:
True,I am speaking as an outsider and have limited knowledge in this field but we are here to discuss the options and discuss football,aren't we,not to proclaim ourselves as the best of the lot?
I can assure you that i am not proclaiming to the 'best', whatever that means. Of course we are here to debate, but at the same time we should respect the opinions of others.
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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I do respect the opinions of others,only that I do get slightly vociferous in my tone when I am sure that something said is not right. Moreover,it's not that I do not accept mt my own shortcomings. I have had several interesting discussions with Sam over numerous issues and it's not been a case that everytime,I was right or that he was spot on all the time;I tend to see both sides of the picture really.
And I suppose we are here for discussing footballing,not debating about it. At least,our main aim should be to discuss the plethora of issues enveloping the game,although more often than note,these discuusions will tresspass into the territory of debates.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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And what about this new issue? How many of our previous comments been published? And whose?
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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behnam
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Reged: 09/04/2007
Posts: 4
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I think the solution is rather simple. The reality of today's game is that big clubs will snatch the young players early, and won't give them any playing time. Why not adopt the strategies of some of Europe's other top leagues?
My proposal would be to allow any Premiership or Championship club to field their reserve team in one of their local leagues. The reserve sides would have the opportunity to achieve promotion through to League One, but no higher. The would also be ineligible to be crowned champions of any league they play in, and they would be ineligible to participate in the FA Cup or Carling Cup. Once in League One, the top non-reserve sides would achieve promotion.
I believe this would give the reserve players the much needed game time to keep them in form and allow them to develop. As for the argument that it would deny smaller clubs a spot in the higher divisions, my answer is that if you are not good enough to beat a reserve team, what business do you have in the top flights? I realise that this is a harsh answer, but the truth is often harsh.
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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For a decent player to improve himself, he needs to play amongst quality players,he must be insulated in a circuit where players with same or more quality reside. This is true for all walks of life and football,being a vital component of the life system,follows suit. Reserve sides of top Premeirship sides playing in the lower divisions would certainly help and improve these players and will also keep the confidenceof the players buoyed.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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RichieC
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Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 534
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Quote:
I don't have a great idea whether the lower leagues are as competitive as Mr. Barry made them out to be but the 'invasion' of the bigger English clubs into the football league would certainly help improve the standards of the leagues and even satisfy the footballing hunger of the top kids in the country.
While I cannot vouch for Leagues 1 and 2, the Championship is in rude health and in no way needs 'quality' charity handouts from the 'bigger' clubs! I personally feel that introducing reserve teams into the lower leagues devalues the status of those lower league teams...Not every club in the land sees the premiership as the be all and end all of their world. Sure, every club would love to reach the top, but a lot aren't too bothered whether chelsea or Man U win the title, so long as they whup their local rivals.
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RichieC
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Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 534
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Quote:
For a decent player to improve himself, he needs to play amongst quality players,he must be insulated in a circuit where players with same or more quality reside. This is true for all walks of life and football,being a vital component of the life system,follows suit. Reserve sides of top Premeirship sides playing in the lower divisions would certainly help and improve these players and will also keep the confidenceof the players buoyed.
Of course, I was forgetting the lower leagues are only there to act as testing grounds for the top clubs...silly me for assuming that we should be allowed to have any pride whatsoever in the league we're in...how could I forget we are here only to serve...why not just rename the lower leagues 'The Big 4's Reserves' Run Out League'?
The arrogance of the premier clubs knows no bounds!
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behnam
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Reged: 09/04/2007
Posts: 4
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While I cannot vouch for Leagues 1 and 2, the Championship is in rude health and in no way needs 'quality' charity handouts from the 'bigger' clubs! I personally feel that introducing reserve teams into the lower leagues devalues the status of those lower league teams...Not every club in the land sees the premiership as the be all and end all of their world. Sure, every club would love to reach the top, but a lot aren't too bothered whether chelsea or Man U win the title, so long as they whup their local rivals.
I agree with you in that there are quite a few clubs not aiming to win the Premiership, but rather to be successful "locally" or against their biggest rivals. That is all good and part of the game. I don't think the aim is to take that away.
Quote:
Of course, I was forgetting the lower leagues are only there to act as testing grounds for the top clubs...silly me for assuming that we should be allowed to have any pride whatsoever in the league we're in...how could I forget we are here only to serve...why not just rename the lower leagues 'The Big 4's Reserves' Run Out League'?
The arrogance of the premier clubs knows no bounds!
I don't think the intention is to make the lower leagues "testing grounds" for the top clubs, as you put it. If it is, then it shouldn't be. I think the idea here should be to provide the reserve sides of both the Premiership AND Championship teams an opportunity at solid competitive play. It would be almost the same as loaning players out, except that clubs would still be "in control" of their players' development.
I can certainly see why you would think that this may devalue the lower leagues, but I must respectfully disagree. I think it all might boil down to two questions here: Do we want to improve the quality of English Football relative to the rest of the world? or do we want to decrease the gap between the top teams, and the lower teams?
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RichieC
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Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 534
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Hi behnam,
I was responding more to Sub's quote about how it would be good to blood premiership players in the lower leagues (a concept i think is sound, but can be done already via the loan system...which also benefits the lower league clubs) and more the attitude that entailed (i.e. we have this nice big club and there's these insignificant teams down there we could use to better our players). (NB Sub, I wasn't having a go at you personally, but the attitude of the clubs  )
A potential problem i forsee with allowing reserve sides into the lower leagues is, what happens when you end up with say, the top 6 sides in a lower league being made up of the reserve sides of bigger clubs? (Given the strength in depth some premiership squads have, it's entirely possible) We then end up with an even larger gap...one between the lower league clubs and the reserve sides and an almost unclosable one to the premiership. The big clubs would then see the reserve sides as a money spinner in their own right and buy more players just to have success with them. Who knows, we could end up with a Premiership consisting of the top 10 sides and their reserve teams...then what? A 2nd reserve side? (I know that's an extreme, but one never knows...)
And if the clubs really cared about raising the standard of football in the country (which i very much doubt they do, given their attitude to England Internationals) then they'd take steps which didn't involve improving their own situations...though i don't for one minute excpect them to as it's not really their duty.
Edited by RichieC (10/04/2007 21:04)
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