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This month, Michel Platini argues the case for reducing the number of Champions League entrants from Spain, Italy and England, while Arsene Wenger argues in favour of retaining the status quo. The article can be found here: The Big Issue |
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While I think that Michel Platini has the right goals, in terms of broadening the scope of the Chmaions League with more teams from 'lesser' nations, I think he is wrong in his way of doing it. I think that the Champions League should be expanded, with the Uefa Cup being scrapped to make room. The top 5 or 6 from the big leagues could then qualify, as well as the top two from weaker leagues. The competition could be doubled in size, to 16 groups of four after the initial qualifying stage, and a new round of 32 introduced after the group stage. It should be renamed back to the European Cup. I love the Champions League as a competition, but the Uefa Cup has lost is lustre in comparison, only coming alive as a competition from the last 8 onwards. Expanding the Champions League would ensure that the lesser European leagues are strengthened, as well as returning the competition back to a truly European contest, not just a competition for Europe's rich. More Champions league places for lower ranked clubs would also strengthen domestic leagues. In England in particular, the 4 Champions League places are usually sown up before the season kicks off, introducing another 1 or 2 places would mean different teams have the opportunity to compete as the 5th placed team is rarely the same year on year. |
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Righteous, welcome to the forum first of all. And admin, good idea for a new section to it! I remember having a debate with Subhankar a few months ago about the format for the Champs League. Personally the group stages bore me rigid, almost entirely without exception (Barca's matches against Chelsea this season and against Man United in 1998-1999 being the exceptions), and are one example of how the competition is tailored to allow the big clubs to make ever more money from football's biggest cash cow. I don't think anyone would argue with the statement that allowing more champions from smaller footballing nations into the competition is a good idea. I wouldn't agree with expanding the competition, I think it's bloated enough already and scrapping the UEFA Cup would take away one platform on which eastern European teams CAN actually compete on something like a level footing - OK, none are in the latter stages this season, but they have been recently and CSKA won the thing a couple of seasons ago. It would also, of course, dilute the overall quality of the Champs League. Not to mention making it a little boring having too many sides from two or three nations in the draw. Personally, I like Platini's idea of reducing England, Spain and Italy's quota to three clubs, or at least forcing them to play off against each other in the third qualifying round. Part of the draw of the competition for me is the exoticism of it, and seeing the same sides every season (particularly from the Premiership) isn't the best way of ensuring excitement. And whether it's called the Champions League or the European Cup, should the fourth best team in ANY country really be allowed into it? I agree about 'rolling back' the name, though. I'm only 22 but I still prefer to call it the European Cup in conversation. Champions League is just so... garish. Sam |
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Oh, and just to add as far as the choice of interviewees is concerned: No manager of one of England's current 'Big Four' is going to say anything other than 'England should have four CL representatives'. If it's cut to three, all of a sudden Wenger's NOT going to be absolutely certain that he'll be in it next season (I know it won't come in as from this season, of course, but you get my meaning). Wenger, Benítez and Sir (maybe not Maureen because he knows he'll win the league anyway) will all say that four English sides should be allowed in, of course. If it stays at four, then Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal all know they'll be in next season's CL. The situation in Spain and Italy is slightly more fluid, but in England it's pretty much written in stone - even when Liverpool only finished 5th they STILL managed to enter the bloody thing! Sam |
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Thanks to the World Soccer first of all for coming up with this brilliant new idea. And also a hearty welcome to Righteous to this forum. |
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I can easily comprehend,Sam, why and how you feel so stulltified as far as the group stage of the UEFA Champions League is concerned. I too was really pissed off by the two group stages but I like the current format of the Champions League. We already have had a good discussion about the format and I won't really get deep into it once more. But you need to acknowledge that the Champions League is not entirely or purely football;the element of finanace creeps in as well. 32 teams in the Champions League proper implies that more money from revenue and ads will be floated around and not only for an odd tie but for much longer and this is going to help the clubs outside the G14 elite. Granted,the group stage does not necessarily produce the best football but as far as entertainment in terms of drama and suspense are considered,well,you can hardly argue. Last season,a defeat to Benfica knocked Manchester United out not only of the Group Stage of the Champions League but the consolation of the back door entry to the UEFA Cup too was taken away from them. This season,had Barca lost to Bremen at Camp Nou,they too would have been eliminated and similar would have been the case for Man U,this time again against Benfica at Old Trafford. Most of the time,the opening three or four games in the group stage do not promise drama or competition,but once a top side slips up as they often tend to do enigmatically,things start to open up to a reasonable extent. And I am resentful towards Pplatini's proposal to allow three teams from Spain,Italy and England. Everyone knows that in European club football,these are three most popular and best domestic leagues and produce either the winner or the finalists in the Champions League. The balance of power cannot be shifted and as an outsider who lives far away from Europe,I would not like any so-called lesser team come from an East European nation and play some third-rate football instead of a big team exhibiting some out-of-the-football. I do sympathise with Platini to a good degree:I can see his stance of drafting in the less privileged clubs into the competition but he needs to realise the European Champions League provides the best fotball in the world,the best players in the world are here and we,the football lovers want to keep things as they are. Just take at the teams that are in the last 8 of the UEFA Cup this season. There are 3 clubs from Spain,2 from Germany and 1 each from England,Holland and Portugal. Where are the clubs from Eastern Europe or the less privileged nations? |
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Hi, Sam I can see your point about CSKA winning the Uefa, but they have also competed very well in the Champions League proper, unlucky to go out in the group stage this season. In another group, they would have made it through. The reason they are a strong side is because they have the money to back big signings. Football is all about money now at the highest level, we cannot change that in my opinion. The big European teams get the big TV deals because they are the teams that most people want to watch. For all their rich history, games such as Steaua Bucharest vs Shaktar Donetsk just don't get the pulses racing for the TV viewing public in the main. The best bit about the Champions League in my opinion is the fact that you get huge games every year involving the teams with the most succesful history, the most fans, and the best players. Of course, these happen to be the richest teams as well, but this is inevitable after football ingratiated itself with capitalism. The Champions League can still produce shocks of a sort, who would have predicted Liverpool winning in '05? Or Porto v Monaco as the final in '04? In my opinion having less wealthy, weaker teams in the competition will just lead to to a weaker competition. The majority of Eastern European teams do not have the financial infastructure or global fan base to compete at the top level, the 4th, 5th placed teams in the strongest leagues do. In my opinion, even if the Champions of Serbia, Croatia, Moldova etc were allowed straight through to the group stage, it wouldn't stop the exodus of their top players to the top European sides and leagues. Footballers are like WAGS, they go where the money is. |
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Quote: Sure. but wouldn't the chance to play in the Chumps League more often 'level the playing field' over a few seasons in this regard? The clubs would improve with European experience and their best players would be more likely to stay a little longer. I think it's worth mentioning in a similar context the recent agreement among Estonia, Latvia and a couple of other Baltic nations to form a sort of mini 'Baltic Champions League' as a way to allow the biggest clubs from their countries to get more European experience, and thus hopefully do better if or when they reach the latter qualifying rounds of the real thing. Europe's got a hell of a lot of nations, so more regional competitions like this, if they're sensibly run and - why not? - UEFA endorsed, could perhaps be the way forward initially. Sam |
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You make a good point about the players potentially staying at 'weaker' clubs longer if they are in European competition regularly, but I don't think this would happen. If you look at Ajax and PSV for example, they are always in European competition, but their best players still leave season after season for other wealthier clubs. The best players have always left the Dutch league, but they once stayed until 25/26 after a good grounding and after a good few years service, now more often than not they leave at 20/21, despite already being in Europe, and with big clubs, in their home country. I agree with the benefits of smaller regional competitions though, this could make teams more competitive on the Champions League stage, but if these are going to exist anyway, why the need to change the structure of the Champions League now? If they are improving there should be more chance of them coming through the preliminary rounds anyway. I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree on this! good to have some debate though, hopefully Michel Platini will listen to all sides before he tries to put through his proposals. The Champions League will still be a great competition, whatever changes they make. After the disappiontment of the World Cup, quality wise, I think the Champions League has overtaken International football in terms of standard of play. |
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Sam,you say about creating a "level playing field" by drafting in the top teams from the less privileged European countries. To throw it in as a moral element is justified but to be frank,that's just sustaining the illusion that these clubs can compete at the highest level. These clubs do go into the qualifying rounds of the Champions League but still fail to make it to the group stage. Why? Because they simply are not good enough,that's why! Had they been good enough to play in the Champions Legue proper,then they would have certainly got past the preliminary hurdles. Sometimes,what you want and what you should get do not coincide. For instance,on a personal note,I would like a Turkish side to feature regularly in the knockout stage but for the sheer delight of watching oppsotion teams suffer in "hell" but that doesn't hapen as Turkish teams re not technically at par with the more illustrious Europan teams,at least not every season. |
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Certainly the Champions League is the forum for the best players to exhibit their talents and calibre. i have made this remark earlier and I stick to it. That's why I don't want any shuffling in the Chamopions League format or the number of teamd from the top three. The champions from the Eastern European nations do go into the quualifying rounds and there theyfail. We don't want these second-rate or third-rate teams to be drafted in directly into the Champions League proper and spoil the show. They do pass through to the UEFA Cup but save one or two,don't even make it to the latter rounds. For those who contradict this,let them take a glance at the tems in the quarter-finals of this season's UEFA Cup. |
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And heh,it's isn't Platini says it all,Platini does it all scenario. The proposal has to be ratfied by the UEFA committee and most of the members,as I hear,are pretty much against the notion. Moreover,the change,if at all made,won't be at all implemented until 2009 or even 2010 anyway..... |
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Personally, I feel all the european competitions were devalued when they allowed non champions into the European cup. It immediately relegated the Uefa cup to a 'mid table' competition where it had previously been for runners up and made nonsense of the concept of the European cup, that being the winners of the domestic leagues battling to see who was the best in Europe. To then call it the contrived 'champions league' (which technically should have an apostrophe somewhere in there) further devalues a once great competition. Champions League? Where are the champions? Liverpool were far from it when they won. Get back to what it chould be and stop pandering to the financial side of it. I agree with the direction Platini is going. The likelihood of his succeeding is sadly small. |
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I agree with everything Sam said in his original post. However, one thing concerns me. If Platini's plan goes through with this I worry that it will strengthen G-14s desire to set up a rival breakaway competition. For them the competition is not about finding the best club team in Europe, it's about ensuring a regular income stream. If they can't do this within Uefa, they'll look for ways to do it on their own. Looking at the English representatives and it’s not too fanciful to assume that both Arsenal and Liverpool will be fighting for the third spot on a regular basis. Arsenal need the money to repay the loans on the Emirates and Liverpool will be in the same boat when the new Anfield is constructed. They have budgeted for European participation on an annual basis. I sense there’ll be less resistance to this idea in Spain and Italy. In Spain, there’s an acceptance that there are two big clubs plus a few who can challenge sporadically, while in Italy, it’s 3 big teams plus the rest. Only in England would the case be made for there being four big clubs. Admittedly, until Abramovich’s millions, no one would have regarded Chelsea as a big club, but provided he stays around, then they will be competing. |
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I usually don’t take a big interest in the politics of football. To me, it seems like ten overweight, balding men sitting in a top-of-the-range conference centre eating and drinking. Every now and again, they might possibly talk about football. The recent appointment of Michel Platini as UEFA president still didn’t catch too much of my attention. But that changed after I read Jonathan Wilson’s excellent book Behind The Curtain: Travels in Eastern European Football. After reading the book, I suddenly took a great interest in Platini’s ideas. In particular, the proposed move to reduce the maximum number of teams per country in the Champions League to three, and also the proposal to increase the number of teams in the European Championships from 16 to 24. In Behind The Curtain, Wilson charts the freefall of Eastern European football, and cites one of the main reasons for the decline as the gulf between clubs in the ‘big four’ (England, Spain, Italy, Germany) and the rest of Europe. He states: “How can Eastern clubs compete? How can they build facilities for the modern development of players? How can they stop their best players leaving? How can they ever build a side when they know any player who shows any talent will be tempted away? The answer is simple: without the help of a wealthy financial backer, they can’t” In essence, it all comes down to money. Money attained by the big clubs, the majority of it through television money. Television money fuelled by the glitz and glamour of the Champions League. The only likely contenders for the Champions League title come from England, Spain, Germany and Italy. Of course, there are other factors that have been pivotal in the downfall of Eastern European football. The end of the Cold War and the division of the USSR and Yugoslavia have had a massive bearing on it, as well as war in the Balkans, but the hogging of the limelight and the income from bigger clubs has probably been the biggest factor. Ever since the advent of the Champions League as we know it today, with a group stage and then a knockout stage, no Eastern European club has even come close to winning it. In the last year of the old European Cup in 1991, when it was just a knockout stage, it was won by Yugoslavian side Red Star Belgrade. Five years before that in 1986, Steaua Bucharest of Romania won the European Cup and were runners up in 1989. Since the turn of the century, only Dynamo Kiev and Spartak Moscow have managed to qualify for the group stages on a regular basis. It certainly says something about the exclusion of Eastern European clubs in the current Champions League format. Is it really right that the champions of a country should have to go through two or three qualifying rounds, while the fourth best team of another country can qualify by playing one qualifying round? Michel Platini’s proposals, however, offer a ray of hope to Eastern European clubs. Reducing the amount of entries from the big leagues is not suddenly going to create an influx of Eastern European clubs into the Champions League, but it will at least give them a much better chance of progressing through to the group stages and collecting a handsome sum of money to help them rebuild. Not only that, but it will hopefully shift some of the limelight away from the big powers and towards Eastern Europe. Another problem is that the people of, for instance, Bucharest, would much rather watch a Premiership game on the television than go and watch their local team. If an Eastern European side were to put on a decent showing in European competition then it would whip up some interest and hopefully we would see the fans flocking back to grounds. Without changes to the current format though, I don’t think we will ever see the likes of Red Star Belgrade in 1991 or Steaua Bucharest in 1986 ever again, which will be a damn right shame. Scrap that, it’ll be a damn right tragedy if an Eastern European club were never to lift the European Cup ever again. |
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Che, welcome to the forum. Not a bad first post for someone with no interest in the game! I just wanted to highlight this from your post, because it sums up pretty well what I've been trying to put across to Subhankar for seemingly AGES... Quote: A really good point. If they're actually allowed to compete more often, THE STANDARD WILL RISE. The current Champs League setup is designed to prevent this happening, because it's not in the interests of the big western European clubs (a.k.a. G14). For that reason if no other, it should be changed, or at least tweaked slightly. Oh and I can't remember who said it (richards?), but technically 'Champions League' isn't necessarily grammatically incorrect, because it COULD refer to a league of champions, which of course doesn't require an apostrophe. Although if that's the case it does it in a phenomenally confusing way. Also, the original format of the European Cup didn't limit itself to only national champions or only one representative per country (the first team to knock Real Madrid out of the EC were Barcelona) - it was simply whichever clubs the organisers (France Football magazine and UEFA) felt like inviting, to make the best tournament. More often than not that was national champions, but not SOLELY... Sam |
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Sam,it's not that I don't see through your ideas. True,they are noble,they are very much feasible,possible but highly improbable. The controversy is with the Big Three European nations,ie,essentially with 3 clubs,all fouth placed in their respective domestic leagues. The fact is that these three clubs are assured of generating much more interest and thrall than their East European counterparts. The UEFA Champions League isn't solely limited to Europe but is disseminated acrosss the entire world as far as audience and fans are concerned. People are more interested in the Liverpools,the Arsenals..... Another point. You said(or someone else)that the drafting in of these less privileged clubs will invariably raise their standards but I don't see how. We have observed the biggest Belgian club featuring regularly in the Champions League but how many times have they entered the second stage? How many times have we seen the likes of Rosenborg filter through to the knockout rounds? Someone,was it Che?,said that it's something of a disgrace that the champions of certain nations have to qualify whereas even the second placed teams of other countries qualify automatically for the Champions League proper. Well,this is moral policing and whatever people might say about morals not being that important as there are other biger issues to encounter,I firmly believe that moral codes are highly significant. But on certain occasions,you have to induct in a bit of common sense and practical sense. The champions of,say Bulgaria,Romania or Hungary,don't encounter that many of toughness whilst winning the championships but the likes of Valencias,Arsenals or Milans do regularly come up with strong force and going against that win is more difficult,I suppose. The best Platini can do is to reduce the number of teams from the Big nations going into the UEFA Cup and increase the number from the lesser countries. The UEFA Cup is acknowledged as the second-tier European competition and we should all try and raise the standards of this particular competition,not the Champions League. Tell me,keeping your hand on your heart,do you guys really believe that eeping three of the big clubs out of the Champions League and importing three mediocre teams at best who can't even get to the latter rounds of the UEFA Cup would engender more interest? If so,God help! |
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Quote: Che, this is not true, the 2004 final was Porto v Monaco. PSV Eindhoven have reached the sf's/qf's on a regular basis. CSKA Moscow played well in this years comp and were unlucky to lose out in a tough group. There have been plenty of upsets, Dynamo Kiev also reached the Semi's in the late 1990's. Also Subhankar makes a good point about Belgian teams as an example of playing in the Champions League year after year but not improving, Anderlecht haven't improved at all, despite being in the group stages seemingly every year. I agree that Eastern European champions shouldn't have to play more qualifying games than the 4th placed English/Italian/Spanish team etc, thats why the Champions League should be expanded. With more groups, there would be more places, and the quality would not drop because all the best teams would still be there, and the Eastern European teams would be able to compete on a more equal footing. Reducing the quality of the Champions League is taking football backwards in my opinion. |
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Quote: Richie While I agree that the name of the tournament should be changed, its only a name, and people seem to be hung up on what is a minor issue. Also Liverpool seem to be mentioned alot by fans wishing to have a go at the Champions League. As a Liverpool fan, I feel I should offer some criticism of this short sighted, somewhat bitter view. When Liverpool won the European Cup for the first time back in 1977, they did so, legitimately in your eyes, as Champions of England the preceeding season. To win the competition that year Liverpool had to beat the following: Round 1:Crusaders (Ireland) Round 2:Trabzonspor QF: St Etienne SF:FC Zurich F:Borussia Moenchengladbach How can anybody seriously think that this run was more difficult than this 2005 triumph: Grp Stage: Deportivo La Coruna Monaco Olympiakos Round 2: Bayer Leverkusen QF: Juventus SF: Chelsea Final: AC Milan Liverpool may have only been the 4th best team in England in 2003-2004, but in the 2004-2005 Champions League, they were worthy winners of a quality competition, and had to beat better teams than in the legitimate (your rules) 1977 triumph. |
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Monaco-Porto was a one off and is unlikely to happen again for quite some time. True, quite a few teams from outside the 'big four' make it to the quarters and semis, but that is as far as they can go. A 'glass ceiling' if you like. Since the beggining of the Champions League as we know it, 12 of the 15 winners have been from England, Spain, Germany or Italy, 1 from France, 1 from Holland and 1 from Portugal. |
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Hello to all, hope i can have my say on the debate. The Champions League format is never going to alter too much, not since there is a commitee that sits around a table and make easy decisions that are forced upon them from the G-14. An alternative, would be for UEFA to create another tournement. Maybe create a Champions League for the East Europeans and vice versa for the West Europeans. At the end of each tournement, that would run along the same lines of the current format, the champions play off in what we curently call the European Super Cup. So, there we go, cancel the now meaningless Uefa Cup, and run two competions, one for East and one for West. Currently,must of the teams in the Champions League all come from the West, so they have nothing to worry about, they still get there'big four' into the competion, it also gives teams from such countries as Wales a qualifing match against Big European team, instead of travelling to Azerbaijan or somehwere and getting knocked out - this thus creates them more money from a two legged lucrative tie. So this keeps all the big clubs in West Europe happy and the ninnows happy with big bucks for a two legged tie they would get beat in anyway. The East of Europe have the same format, giving the likes of Red Star Belgrade playing Steaua Bucharest in meaningful matches (a poteintal final, instead of a bottom of the group match). This would also give more times from the Eastern Bloc' games in Europe that they have never had, matches closer to home, and a lot more competitive. Ans, as i say, the winners of both competions play in the Super Cup, which currently does not mean a lot, but on this occasion, it would show who is the real champion of Europe! Hope you liked my theroy, sorry about any mis-spelt words, hope its not too confusing |
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Quote: That's not right,righteous1. The Champions League proper is already a 32 team competition and the expansion is only going to undermine the quality of the competition. When you sugges that the Eastern European champions are not forced to play too many qualifying matches,that's where you get it right but an expansion from 32 to,say 40 or 44,would only help and decimate the quality of football that we observe in the Champions League. Maybe,UEFA could put two clubs from the same country in one group? |
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Someone said about teams from the Big Three regularly moving into the QF and SF of the Champions League. If they are good enough to do so,then why stop them? If,say the Hungarian champions,are not capable enough to qualify for the group stage,then let them not do that. Let the teams with more depth,class and quality play in Europe's and the world's biggest club competition. |
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It's busier on here since the last time I checked. Anyway, looking at it another way. The Champions League devalues the domestic championships. It matters less that a team actually wins the Premiership than they finish in the top four these days. Going back to Righteous1's point about Liverpool's 2005 success compared to their win in 1977, the problem I have is that the group stages provides a get-out clause for all the big clubs. Upsets are so much less likely in the group stage than in a knockout tie. Newcastle lost their first 3 games a few years back and still managed to get through. It's this safety net that removes the potential for shocks. Prior to that, every game mattered. Also, regardless of the relative ease with which clubs reached the final, few people would argue that in most seasons the best team in Europe won the competition each year. Finally, Oxford che? Guevare or Valencia or both? |
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Quote:Quote: True, it's not exactly the most important issue in football but it's a pointer to the over commercialised nature...an exercise in rebranding, which, though maybe not important on its own, still irks and has wider implications, the main one of which being that money is more important than anything else. Part of the problem has comne because the European Cup has become the Champions League. The European Championships and World Cup Finals all have 'qualifying stages' with European teams getting more places. One could look at the champions league in a similar manner, as it is afterall, a competition to find the best team in europe. However, I do firmly believe that ALL domestic champions should not have to go through qualification. Also, as a grammatical footnote, Champions League should have an apostrophe somewhere in there (as i originally said) as a league of champions should technically be the "Champions' League", as the league comprises "champions". "Champion's Leage" would indicate a league with a champion, which is more what it really is. |
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Quote: Valencia, the city and the football club. |
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Quote: Definitely agree here Subhankar. There should be no national protection at any level of the competition, so what if 3 teams from England are drawn in the same group? it would make it very exciting, and they would still play plenty of 'foreign' teams if they progressed. Going back to the point about the size of the competition, it would have to be a massive competition just to fit every national champion in. Since the break up of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, there are infintely more national champions than there once were. Based on the Euro2008 qualifying groups alone there are over 40 national championships. |
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Sub, the most sensible thing you've said since this discussion started! (Kidding, obviously!) It's a nice compromise between the two positions (i.e. yours and mine). Perhaps an end to seeding could also be introduced - let's have a truly random draw. And Richie... Quote: "Champions' League" would be a league BELONGING to the champions (plural), whereas "Champion's League" would be a league belonging to one singular champion, and in British English when talking about a team sport (as opposed to American English where teams are referred to as 'it' rather than 'they'), wouldn't make any sense. That is, I'm agreeing that it doesn't really make sense without the apostrophe, but it wouldn't necessarily make any more sense WITH it, either. And 'European Champion Clubs' Cup' is a far better name anyway. Sam |
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"Champions' League" would mean that the competition is being played solely amongst the various champions of the European nations and that's not the case with the current structure of the competition at all. I do agree that there ought to be an apostrophe after "s" rather than before "s" but maybe psychologics suggest that it's better off without the small matter of the apostrophe. To me,it does look sexy without it. |
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Someone put the 2003-2004 version of the Champions League in perspective. That was a one-off and moreover,it was absolutely crazy,the way the competition ran that particular season. PSV,Monaco,Depor and Porto went to the Champions League semi-finals,Depor the impressive of them all,winning 4-0 at the Riazor in the return leg after bowing down 4-1 to Milan at the San Siro. But that doesn't consolidate Platinis stance really. Less privileged clubs where? |
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Quote: All domestic champions do not have to go through the qualification stages. Only those from the under par leagues are thrown into the pot and if they cannot then beat a third or fourth placed team from England,spain or Italy,then they have no right to enter into the group stage proper. |
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What i meant was that i believe that all domestic champions should not have to qualify...i.e. Champions from ALL the leagues, minor or not, should go straight through to the group stages. Sure, one can argue that Liverpool or Man U are clearly better than the winners of a minor league, however, that club is still their country's champion and that, as far as i'm concerned, gives them more right to enter the group stages than a 3rd or 4th placed team. Of course we could solve this issue by re-branding the qualification stages as the '1st round' ![]() As for the apostrophe issue, irrespective of where the apostrophe goes, my point was that it's grammatically incorrect without one at all...
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I think everyone has to look at the bigger picture. The Champions League format will never change. We the supporters are the ones who want to see the best clubs taking part, and they are from England, Spain and Italy. UEFA need to think a different stratergy, get together with the Eastern European Clubs and think of another tournement for them to take part in, with the same sort of money availble as the current Champions League They need to maybe take a look at Basketball, currently, England Basketball national team play in Group B of the elite, there are two elites Group A and B. Put the lesser nations in group B and the winners qualify for Group A the following season. The worst countries from group A get demoted to Group B. This format should still keep big Western Countries happy as they will not get demoted, because they are too strong, but smaller countries in Group A will have to fight tooth and nail in every game to avoid relegation to Group B whilst Group B becomes more competitve as there is a goal to reach. This goal can be reached whenyou are at the top of your game against other countries with similar financial capabilites. Once they progress well in group B they should be given the chance of progression into Group A, if they stuggle in group B then we already no that they shouldn't particpate in group A because simply thye are not strong enough. The lesser countries should maybe try to help themselves, just like the Royal League, if teams play more european football against oposition like themselves, then they will get better and better. But instead they stick to Domestic football, of which only a couple of teams can compete. So, the FA's of Serbia, Croatia, Moldova, Albania, etc should get together, form a unique competion to themselves and then progress from there. Thy have to help themselves rather than just sit and wait, cos it will never happen, only chance of happening is if the UEFA board was all eastern europeans. |
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Quote: Part of the problem with the champions league is that it hasn't stopped changing for about the last 10 years...someone needs to have the balls (pardon the expression) to come out and say 'look, this isn't the european cup where all domestic winners competed against each other, this is a cash driven european club league, which we're slowly but surely moulding into a European league proper...' Personally speaking I don't wish to see a European Cup with loads of 4th placed teams in it, whethere they're from Spain, England or Albania. I want to see a European Cup with the Champions (that's the 'winners') of each country in it, which is what we once had. I do actually like the idea of a European club league, even in its current format, but i don't like the way the european cup has been twisted to fit it, though i suppose it was the only way some form of european league could be formed via the back door as even the mere mention of a proper euro league is shunned every time it's mentioned. |
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I think we all know that the format and number of entries will not alter, not unless the UEFA commitee changes to a completey Eastern European board. So, first they need to challenage the current members, and get a foot in the door. Secondly, it seems they only want more entries because they want more money, whatever happened to competitive football matches? UEFA's best interest is too start a new competition aimed at 2nd ranking countries and give them competitive football in the knowledge of playing matches against teams of the same standard and also the incentive of some prize money. UEFA need to look at the Asian Confederation, see that they have the Champions League for countries that have matured in their football and the AFC Cup for developing countries, which in Europes case could be classed as Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Austria, Slovakia, the list goes on. Or simply the 16 countries that qualify for the Euro 2008 championships have there teams represented in Tournement A and non-qualifers in another tournement. The format stays like that until the next International qualifying competition. This would also generate more interest for players playing for there country as it also boasts there club competition and stops the no-nonsense injuries |
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Quote: The first paragraph is a very good point. Similar to what I said above about the 'Baltic Champions League' (I don't know if's actually officially called that, by the way), but I'd forgotten that there's a confederation who actually use such a format as officially sanctioned already. The second paragraph I'm not so sure about, I don't know if I agree with equating the strength of a national team to that of the country's league (look at Spain, for instance). Although if UEFA implemented such an idea it would explain Scotland's appeal to increase the Euros to 24 nations! Sam |
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The fact is that the Champions League format isn't going to change and so we need to eke out a new solution to bring the club teans from the less privileged nations. Suggestion of a Champions League alike for the East European nations are noble enough but I doubt whether this is going to solve the problem fully. How many of the people would actually watch teams from Albania,Georgia or Malta play even if the competition be termed as the East European Champions League? I doubt whether everyone here or anywhere outside the regions know who are the reigning champions of these nations or who leads the tables there at the moment! Of course,theoritically the plan is feasible but when you actually put it into practice,it does attract scepticism and potential failure. |
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I live in Denmark and can only agree if some of you think Danish sides have no place in the Champions League based on the quality of our domestic football. The few Danish clubs that have made the group stage over the years haven`t exactly made a big impression. I also agree with those of you who argue that the best players from "lower quality football nations" will seek out wealthier clubs abroad even if their own teams make the CL on a regular basis. The issue is the money these clubs could make. That money would be well spent improving the home game especially in eastern countries. Better stadiums, better training facilities, better youth programmes and a better living for the players in general. Scandinavian clubs have all those things and simply have to accept the fact that they don`t have a leg to stand on in Europe. Obviously they don`t have the money to sign big international stars, but the economy is generally sound and more often than not they play in excellent stadiums. The downside is that the fans are likely to miss out on exciting international competitions, but there are allways the national teams who mostly do okay. The Eastern and Scandinavian clubs will never compete on the highest level in Europe even if the big four are cut to TWO teams each in the CL. Come the quarter finals, there`ll be no more surprising upsets and the usual suspects will be left to compete for the ultimate triumph. However, thousands of fans in lower ranking European countries would experience a better game in better grounds domestically if they stood a better chance of reaching the group stage of the Wealthiest`s League. That would basically be pretty cool. G-14 and the like has been milking European football dry for years and it´s simply time they gave something back. Who knows? We might even see a club or two hitting it big after a few years. God knows it`s boring to watch Real Madrid versus Man United or Bayern Munich versus Fc Barcelona for the 100th time. Scandinavian teams have had their chance several times, but simply lack the ability to go all the way. Eastern Europe haven`t even had a shot yet (as far as I remember) and deserve a fighting chance. Forza Platini. |
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Sub, What would your solution be? Personally, i can't see any change, no fans want to see a change to the quality of the comp, so why should UEFA try to change the comp. They simply just need to bring in something for the minor nations, but if the minor nations want something they should help themselves and try to bring something to the table and just let UEFA say its 'good to go' as and when they have a format for themselves. They can still particpate in the Champions League but have something else for them when they fail and cannot access the UEFA Cup |
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Another option i can think of is: Currently, Scandanavia has the Royal League, maybe just the winners of this comp enter the champions league, you then just have the strongest entry from that region. A Baltic League winner could progress again. The losers enter the UEFA Cup for example |
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Quote: But the point of this competition being set up isn't to make money or to broadcast to an international audience. Come on, they know they're not going to do THAT! It's to give the local fans an extra competition to watch, with a bigger prize at stake, and, most crucially, to improve the standard of football over time in the competing leagues. Personally, I hope it'll work (and think it could well do). Sam |
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Your spot on there SAM, thats what i'm trying to get across, its not about us the Westerner's who watch competitive footy every week, its about Eastern Europeans, cos thats who i assume are the ones who want more places in CL need, competitive football on a rgular basis against other nations on a par with themselves. Theres no point having more teams in CL if there just going to get thumped, get some money and dominate there own domestic league, which unfortuanelty happens in most top 5 eagues now |
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(Hi there, nice to join, first post, etc) First of all, thanks to WS for the magazine, the forums and the opportunity to have our say. The European club competitions have been having the same problem as the Olympic Games: who to allow in to compete. This comes from having two different aims, one to find the best, and another to have representation from everywhere. Usually both can be combined, but sometimes there are clashes. If competition is for the best, then why should weaker teams compete instead of others just because they come from a region without stronger representatives? In this view, it would the 5th or 6th Spanish, English and Italian clubs the ones who should feel aggrieved that they are not allowed to play in the CL whereas teams they could surely beat are in just because there have to be geographical quotas. Sevilla this season are a good example. Barring teams in this manner would be akin to putting a limit to the number of clubs from a given city (London in the Premiership, for example) that can play in the top division of a country. I understand why this was done, though. It was not about barring teams, it was about choosing the best from each country, so that everyone could feel involved. First it was only the national champions, and then more teams from the stronger countries were allowed. It's an evolving format, and each new change seems to be pushing the competition forward, even when some of them (like the second 6-match league round that was introduced), were later scrapped. What I would propose would be going the full way towards a dual National-European calendar, where everyone who wants (and has minimum financial and stadium guarantees) is allowed to play European football. If the dates are booked already for the European matches, why are only a few clubs involved while the rest have got nothing to do? While Chelsea are playing Barcelona, and Tottenhan playing Bayer Leverkusen, why can't be Everton be playing Fiorentina, or Wigan be playing Getafe? And I mean a proper league, with teams involved in it until March at least, to then solve the matter through quickly-played QFs, SFs and a big final. I understand that elimination ties produce excitement all year round, but the price of that is that half of the entrants are out after round one, another quarter after round two, etc. The World Cup understood this quite quickly and introduced groups very early on in its history. Now the CL has followed suit. Now, why can't a proper league be introduced in which EVERYONE is involved most of the season? A league is always the fairest way of deciding a champion, or at least sorting the best from the not so good. But to retain the glamour and history of knockout football, the business end of the season would still be decided through elimination among the best 8 of the year. This is how it's done in American club sport, for example, and it works. So, taking another step forward, let's make the Champions League the First Division of Europe and the UEFA Cup the Second Division. The best 24 or 32 would play at the top and the UEFA Cup would have a meaningful role to play, giving promotion to the best. If you're Atlético de Madrid, AZ Alkmaar, Reading, Catania, Wolfsburg, Toulouse, whoever, and have a brilliant team that year, go on, live the dream, beat the best in the second flight of the continent and reach the Champions League. It would make for big success stories like the ones national leagues produce. It works at national level, why shouldn't it at continental level? |
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Of course,originally when the European Cup was set up,the founding fathers had virtually no concrete idea that it was going to be so huge 50 or so years fast forward.Now with the advent of broadcasting ease,the Champions League reaches out to large scale and worldwide audience and albeit the teams in the UCL are Europeans,the players are from all over the world and so are the fans or the viewers |
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Quote: I suggest that the champions of the lesser domestic teams are inducted directly into the third round of the qualifers,obviously according to the their standards(I mean champion clubs whose domestic league is beleagured and thirdor fourth rate need to play earlier) and then are pitted against the third,fourth or even the secondplaced teams of the bigger leagues. I guess I have said this already but nevertheless,Ifind no harm in repeating really..... |
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Hi folks, just signed up to add few comments to this interesting thread. Firstly, I think Platini the politician is speaking here - I don't believe he's really prepared to take on the big leagues, but it's won him a few votes to suggest that he might. Secondly - an obvious point but one which I haven't seen anyone make - the battle for fourth adds some spice to the end of the season and allows a couple more teams to dream of a CL place. If the CL is reserved for the top 3, or just the Champions, it becomes an even more exclusive club for the rich. The 4th place CL spot enhances the competitiveness of the most popular domestic leagues. Thirdly, some posters have referred to meaningless CL group games. In my view there are very few of these - even if neither side can improve their position in the group there is usually enough pride, money or a UEFA place at stake to make the game interesting. I think there are proportionately far more tedious domestic league games than CL group games. Finally, the UEFA Cup is an unfairly neglected competition, in my opinion. Platini could achieve a lot more for european football by restoring a little prestige to the UEFA Cup rather than pretending he's reforming the CL. The latter stages of the UC are generally exciting and unpredictable. I watched the 2nd half of Espanyol v Haifa in a bar in Barcelona the other week, with de la Pena in full flow, and it was superb. Yet on my TV I have to make do with some scruffy live coverage of the English clubs' progress through the interminable group stages and then nothing until the final. If the UC was given a more dynamic format and more prize money, TV would show more interest and the clubs in the countries whose support Platini is courting will get more coverage and more money. Seems like a much quicker win to me. |
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Quote: So what you're saying is, no change at all from the current system then (apart from maybe making the 2nd placed teams from 'big' leagues qualify as well)? Sam |
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Quote: Welcome to the forum. You mean to say that the fight for thr fourth place in the top leagues at the end of the season lightens up the whole atmosphere? Well,should only a maximum of 3 teams qualify from the Big Three,then the battle for the third place would be enhanced and that would add more spice. I don't want any changes but cannot agree on your point. You look now at the EPL table and you can well insinuate who are going to finishn third and fourth,but should only 3 teams be made to play in the UCL,then Liverpool and Arsenal would be fighting tooth and nail now. I seem to contradict myself here perhaps but still,felt your point wasn't valid enough. On other issues,we two are at one. Yes,the UEFA Cup has be smeared with more prestige and honour as well as quality and the UCL should remain untouched. |
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That's right. That's what I have been shouting all the time. Let the current format remain as it is and if you want to invite more teams from Eastern Europe into the Champions League proper,then let them first prove themselves in teh qualifying rounds,though if these games be made slightly easier for these teams and a bit tougher for teh teams from England,Spainand Italy,then I am not going to be the one who would complain. |
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Well I joined this forum to start a topic about the proposed European competition format changes only to find it's already the "big issue" of the week/month - excellent! I was actually hoping that there might be some folks with some more concrete information about what the actual changes might be - but from the posts so far (interesting as many of them are) that doesn't seem to be the case. Since this thread started there seem to have been a few alterations (all rumoured rather than confirmed) to the changes to the CL that UEFA are likely to come up with. We started with the simple "election pledge" to take out the 4th clubs from the top three countries. Frankly, I thought this was a terrible idea. Why? Well possibly as an Englishman I was biased - alarmed more it has to be said by the thought that the already slim chances for a club outside the top four to reach the "promised land" was being snatched away than any sympathy with the one of the top four that might miss out every other year. But also appalled because I could see only negatives & not positives for the competition as a whole. Take out three top clubs with potential to reach the latter stages of the competition - so diminish the quality. Fine, at least to a degree, if doing so was a compromise to ensure a greater diversity (i.e more Champions) in the competition. But to my mind - taking out one team from England, Spain & Italy is more likely to make it easier for a third team from France or Portugal or a second club from Ukraine or Turkey etc. to qualify every year. To put numbers to this. Whereas now the minimum number of countries guaranteed to be represented at the Group Stage is 12 - removing the three 4th placed clubs would only increase this by one - to 13. But things are getting better. First it's suggested that - rather than eliminating the 4th team from the top three countries all together the lowest ranked teams from the top six should have to play off against each other instead. Now I hear on another forum that Kicker magazine is reporting that it's not the top six countries but the top nine or eleven. Now information is still sketchy. I assume that "play-off" simply refers to the teams in CLQR3 being split into groups (similar to the UEFA Cup regional groups) rather than being subject to one big draw. And, unless the number of clubs per country is going to change then the numbers in Kicker don't make sense - if it's going to include the runners-up from the top nine or eleven countries it surely has to include all the runners-up (down to country 15) that currently enter the competition. But if this idea does come to fruition I'm much happier. Essentially, you make the "non-Champions" who have to play qualifying rounds play each other - 18 clubs if you include the 3rds from the top three countries. And the remaining seven matches will be between Champions. Some people might frown at the idea that this guarantees a lot of non-Champions progress to the Group Stage at the expense of Champions but I'd be willing to bet that a guaranteed 17 Champion clubs is more than there's been for a while. The devil is still in the detail of the changes but it's looking a lot better to me now than the vague election pledge we had in the first place. |
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Thanks for your comments so far folks. A very stimulating read. I've forwarded all the posts from this thread to World Soccer editor Gavin Hamilton for his perusal. |
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Quote: So does this imply that the discussion on this particular topic will now cease? |
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Don't think so...they did say 'so far' so i'm assuming we can still comment... |
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Quote: Not at all. The thread is still open. |
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Just check out this piece guys. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/6507131.stm |
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"Uefa spokesman William Gaillard said: "We want to revitalise the cup competitions in each country which have suffered in recent years." Would they be the years since the Cup Winners' Cup was scrapped? |
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Quote: I think the chicken definitely came before the egg in this instance. The Cup Winners Cup was scrapped because - even before 1999 - it had become largely the "Cup Losers Cup". With three or four teams from the top countries now in the CL it would probably have to be renamed the "Cup For Teams That Aren't Even Cup Finalists Cup". I'm sure some people would argue "well if you kept the CL just for Champions this problem wouldn't occur" which is a fair enough argument if you don't expect things to evolve & develop over time. I can just imagine the looks on the faces of Mourinho or Ferguson if told: "Only one CL spot for you to fight over next year guys - but don't panic we're bringing back the Cup Winners Cup..." |
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LOL!!!!! Oh can we??? That would be excellent! Then they could use it in a credit card advert... ...the looks on the faces of Mourinho or Ferguson if told: "Only one CL spot for you to fight over next year guys - but don't panic we're bringing back the Cup Winners Cup..." Priceless... |
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Quote: Even as a fan of a team managed by one of those two, I would pay good money to see that happen... Sam |
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Hey Guys, So we have discussed on what we think should happen to the European Cup format - from keeping it as it is to creating a new tournement for Eastern Europeans and stregthening the UEFA Cup and now talk from UEFA on Cup Winners Cup. Seems to me UEFA no they can't change CL, so add another cup - one they once got rid of. But what i really want to know, away from this subject a little is, what do you guys really follow - do you just like CL with Real Madrid, Man U, Barca etc every year or do you follow something else, something you don't see on TV but follow with an interest? We all want CL to be competitive, but its always the same teams every year with about one or two surprises maybe every season (qualifying for group stage, but then cannot compete on the field?). I'd prefer another tournement that is conpetivtive - forget about watching on tv, can always find something on the web to follow it - but it creates something unique, more fasinating. Maybe its just me, but seriously i do get bored with CL with the same teams all the time, and need something i don't no about to get me realy going. i mean i always know who will win out of Real Madrid and Steaua Bucharest, but Steaua Bucharest against Red Star Belgrade seems more interesting and not too sure who will come out on top - a bit of genuis or good solid defending. Whats your guys take on what you like to see in footy, atractive football, or tactical football? |
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Well Drury, as you know I like to follow football from far far away, necessitating late nights and a decent-ish (for reading at least) grasp of a second language. Personally I think the passion and comparatively level playing field of the Libertadores is much better. OK, the standard of football maybe isn't as high, but it's a lot more entertaining. By the way, that Baltic champs league idea is called the Baltic League. You can read about it at UEFA's website here: http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/news/kind=2/newsid=518532.html and view what appears to be the competition's 'official' Wikipedia website, with group tables, fixtures and results, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_League There you go - a competition with teams you've never heard of! Don't say I never give you anything... Sam |
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I've also just found their actual full-on official website. http://www.balticleague.com/standings/2007/groups/ Group C looks a bit of a dull one. And for any fans of Scottish football, FBK Kaunas, currently top of Group A, are the other side owned by that chap who currently reigns over Hearts. Of course the Scots already knew that but some of the non-Brits on here might not have done. To keep this vaguely on-topic... um... I like the Baltic League idea of groups with only three teams. Perhaps the Champs League could introduce this as a way of cutting down the number of mindnumbingly dull group stage matches we have to sit through each season? Or something... Sam |
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Quote: Drury_fire So why doesn't the UEFA Cup satisfy your nee |