worldsoccerAdministrator
(member)
05/04/2007 11:29
The Big Issue 2

This month Rafa Benitez and Barry Fry disagree over whether Premier League clubs should be allowed to field reserve teams in the Football League.

The article can be found here:

http://www.worldsoccer.com/bigissue/

righteous1
(member)
05/04/2007 18:25
Re: The Big Issue 2

As a fan of Liverpool, and my home town club Peterborough United, I am in quite a unique position here!

I have to say (and this is very rare!) that I agree with Barry Fry. The big premiership clubs already have a massive advantage over the rest because of champions league money, gate money, shirt sales etc, letting their kids (who they often nick from smaller clubs around Europe and the world), play in the lower division would just widen the gap between rich and poor.

I can see where Rafa is coming from, and I don't think he is proposing this idea from a purely selfish perspective, he genuinely thinks that the system of bringing young players through in this country needs a major shake up. He may be right about that, but I don't think this is a fair solution.

If the big clubs are so worried about young players not getting chances in their teams, then they shouldn't steal them from their smaller local clubs in the first place. At Peterborough we had Matthew Etherington, Simon Davies and Luke Steele, all left at a very young age. Etherington and Davies to Spurs had mixed success, Etherington having to leave to get regular football, Davies upset by injury, would they have been better staying at Posh for another year or two? who knows.

Steele is a young goalkeeper signed by Man Utd, his career is seemingly going nowhere at present, he has played very few games other than a loan spell at Coventry, its fair to say had he stayed at Posh he may have clocked up 200 league games by now, and be a better player for it.

So my message to Rafa is simple, if you want the best young players from lower division clubs, don't buy them and stick them in the reserves, buy them and loan them back to the lower league teams, or don't buy them at all.

I agree with Barry about the passionate support in the lower leagues. In Spain, the crowds in the second division and lower are pitiful in size compared to the lower divisions in England, and that goes for the rest of Europe also. We don't want meaningless matches that are only there to make Liverpool, Man Utd, or Chelsea have a better team in the future. We want matches that matter, thats what will improve the young players, going on loan to a team fighting against relegation, or a team looking for promotion. They will be playing under real pressure and in front of noisy crowds. This will surely make them better players, as Rafa desires, without de-valuing the Football League. It will be a sad day in my opinion if the biggest game in The Championship is Man Utd B vs Chelsea B.

big_gaz
(member)
06/04/2007 11:30
Re: The Big Issue 2

I agree with pretty much all of that, righteous1. As a Liverpool fan myself I'm staggered at the inability of the Academy to produce a single first team regular in the last few years. But I don't think it's the fault of the Reserve league that the club is struggling to produce top class homegrown talent - other clubs like Man City and Blackburn can, and their reserves play in the same league as Liverpool's.

Arguably 18 league games isn't enough, particularly if it means a mass exodus of Premiership reserves every March, influencing promotion and relegation across several divisions. The loan system may not be as harmful as allowing B teams into the Football League but it still has the potential to distort the balance and competitiveness of the lower leagues.

righteous1
(member)
06/04/2007 12:24
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

But I don't think it's the fault of the Reserve league that the club is struggling to produce top class homegrown talent - other clubs like Man City and Blackburn can, and their reserves play in the same league as Liverpool's.




I think the problem is that the squads of the top clubs are now so large that kids have to be really top class just to get a chance. Look at how many players Arsenal have, they sign all of the best young players from around the world at age 16-20, or as many as they can, as well as older proven professionals, they send dozens of players out on loan, and still their reserves are good enough to get to the Carling Cup final.

Liverpool are beginning to go the same way with Rafa signing alot of young players in the last year. If I was a 17 year old now deciding who to sign a professional contract with (i wish!) you would have to look at Middlesbrough, Man City etc as realistic alternatives to the top clubs because of the chances you get, but that just doesn't happen. They all have agents and sign for the clubs they 'support', or who have the most money to offer them.

Liverpool have won the youth cup last year, and are in the final again this year, but there is no sign of any of those players getting a run in the first team. They have 12 out on loan at the moment, with no doubt more going next season. Stephen Warnock is a good example, there are not many better English left backs than him about, as he has shown since joining Blackburn, but he had to leave to get a game because we have Riise, Aurelio etc etc.

Only the real stars, the Owen's & Gerrard's, are going to come through the system at the top clubs as it is at present. On paper this should improve the England team, as only the best kids come through and improve working with top coaches and players, but it doesn't seem to be going like that at the moment!

I am not one who subscribes to the view that England are poor because of th influx of foreign players though. We didn't qualify for the 1974 or 1978 world cups, there were virtually no foreign players in England then, so it makes no sense as a valid argument.

lazyyzal05
(member)
06/04/2007 13:26
Re: The Big Issue 2

Rafa just loan your players out!.

big_gaz
(member)
07/04/2007 00:22
Re: The Big Issue 2

I think what Rafa's really saying is that the Academy isn't coming up with the goods, but he doesn't want to be seen as criticising Heighway. If there were 1 or 2 lads coming through each season who were ready for 1st team action I don't think he'd have said what he did. I also think he's looking to justify the policy of signing young foreign players, which Heighway has expressed unhappiness about.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
07/04/2007 05:38
Re: The Big Issue 2

To be frank,I am caught in two minds. I can see either side of the divide and I have got to accept that I am on the fence here. Let me try and puzzle out a solution to this "strife".

What Rafael Benitez says about starting top clubs' reserve teams in the lower leagues is not at all selfish. With the passage of time,Rafa has learnt to accept as well as respect the football buffs in England and I know that he's genuinely concerned about the lack of a large number of top quality players coming through the ranks in England. Most of the players in the reserves in the top teams in England are young and do have some potential(otherwise they won't all all be on the reserves). What they need at this stage is match practice,regular football and sustainence of confidence which they often are starved of at the bigger clubs. So these players need to be loaned out into the lower leagues.

But would starting reserves sides of the Premiership clubs who can afford them in the lower tiers of the footballingfamily in England help? Yes,it will. You need to absorb this fact once and for all:that the players on the reserves for the Chelseas,Man Uniteds or Arsenals are better than those playing for,say Peterborough(sorry to have hurt you) or Oxford United or whatever. To lift the players' ability and raise the standards of the youth set-up in the country,you must try and give maximum opportunity to these players. True,they may be loaned out to some of teh lower clubs but it's obvious that the facilities at most of these clubs are far from what those at the top Premiership clubs and this element too does play a huge role in the development of these kids. So starting reserve teams won't that bad an idea.

I don't have a great idea whether the lower leagues are as competitive as Mr. Barry made them out to be but the 'invasion' of the bigger English clubs into the football league would certainly help improve the standards of the leagues and even satisfy the footballing hunger of the top kids in the country.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
07/04/2007 07:37
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:



So my message to Rafa is simple, if you want the best young players from lower division clubs, don't buy them and stick them in the reserves, buy them and loan them back to the lower league teams, or don't buy them at all.





The first clause of your statement is perfct. Buy the young kids from the lowertier clubs and loan them back. This will certainly help improve their game and has been described as a successful means to develop young talents in Spain who otherwise would struggle to make a breakthrough at the bigger clubs. BUt your second clause sounds so so naive. Well,if Liverpool don't go and get X from that third division side,then Man U will and if Man U don't,then Chelsea will. That's how it works in football,or rather in the business part of it. If you are a 17 year old football aspirant playing for an obscure little club in the south west of England and the out of the blue,the likes of Man U or Arsenal come knocking at your doors,you do find it really so very,very tough to refuse the offer,even when you know that you might find life in a bigger pool too tough for your constitution.

righteous1
(member)
07/04/2007 11:03
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:


BUt your second clause sounds so so naive. Well,if Liverpool don't go and get X from that third division side,then Man U will and if Man U don't,then Chelsea will. That's how it works in football,or rather in the business part of it. If you are a 17 year old football aspirant playing for an obscure little club in the south west of England and the out of the blue,the likes of Man U or Arsenal come knocking at your doors,you do find it really so very,very tough to refuse the offer,even when you know that you might find life in a bigger pool too tough for your constitution.



With respect Sub, as a football fan who lives in England and has been going to games for 15 years, I don't think I am naive. I also think I am in a more educated position than you to discuss the lower reaches of the English leagues, as you yourself have said you have limited knowledge of this arena.

Of course I know that if Liverpool don't sign that kid from League 2, then someone else will, my point was that if all the managers of the top clubs are REALLY concerned about development of young players in England, and not their own interests, then they wouldn't sign young players so early, they would let them develop. There are many examples of young players going to big clubs too young, and then having to go back down the leagues to rebuild their careers.

I also disagree that the reserves of the premiership is a much higher standard than the football league. Yes there are better players, but football is not just about player quality, it is about coping under pressure. There is no pressure in the reserves because there is no crowd, little to aim for and teams are a ramshackle mixture of players coming back from injury, trialists, young players hoping to break through, and squad players playing out their careers.

The football league may not be to the highest standard, but it is competitive (just look at the league tables and see how tight they are throughout), and the games are high pressure because the stakes are massive compared to a reserve game. That is why Rafa (and Wenger, Mourinho, etc etc) wants his young players playing in the league and not in the reserves.

The scenario here is that that the big boys may need the football league, but the football league is doing very nicley as it is thanks, and doesn't need them, other than to sign players on loan, which the big boys are only too happy to do. This is they way it should continue.

badgerboy
(member)
07/04/2007 13:09
Re: The Big Issue 2

I have to come down on Barry Fry's side in this argument too.

I must confess I don't follow the reserve league set up enough to know the quality of the teams or the football played there. But couldn't a lot of Rafa's concerns be addressed by a reform in the set up of that league alone. Make the reserve league primarily for young players (under 21) with a maximum of two senior professionals allowed (simply to allow match practice for first-teamers returning from injury). And for match practice against "men" then loans to clubs playing in the Championship & other leagues seems to be the best answer. And if there aren't enough clubs in England with enough quality "youth players" to create a competitive league how about more matches against continental opposition?

For me there is one really "big issue" that in a way links both last month's question & this one's. Are the "big clubs" being allowed to buy players too young?

Last month we talked about Platini's plans to "tweak" the CL format to give more teams a chance to compete. The problem is - any amount of playing with the format isn't really going to make more teams "competitive" - it's only going to allow more teams to "take part".

Look at a player like Ben Sahar - who played as a substitute for Israel against England at age 17. He's already in Chelsea's reserves when it would surely be healthier for the European game - & perhaps for the player himself, who knows - if he first had the chance to develop his skills at his original club - Hapoel Tel Aviv. The same could be said further down the pyramid. Hearts - hardly a European giant - are able to attract "Romanian wonderkid" Dumitru Copil straight from the Romanian third division.
Seriously - what hope have top clubs in places like Romania & Israel got of seriously competing with the top European clubs when they can't even get a season or two of their best young players?

This month we see the issue of young players from a "domestic perspective".

And we find that - once the big clubs have snaffled all these good young players (from home & abroad) they don't know what to do with them.

So maybe my question should be rephrased: "Even if the rules allow them to - are the big clubs choosing to buy players too young?

subhankar_mondal
(member)
08/04/2007 10:19
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:



Of course I know that if Liverpool don't sign that kid from League 2, then someone else will, my point was that if all the managers of the top clubs are REALLY concerned about development of young players in England, and not their own interests, then they wouldn't sign young players so early, they would let them develop. There are many examples of young players going to big clubs too young, and then having to go back down the leagues to rebuild their careers.

I also disagree that the reserves of the premiership is a much higher standard than the football league.



Points:
a) All the managers in top flight English football are NOT concerned about the development of youth football in the country except when it is in their own self-invested interests. I don't anticipate a Jose Mourinho under pressure to win all the competitions in a single season to try and excavate an English player in the lower reaches of the footballing strata in the country.

b)Here we are(at least I am)not talking about all the Premiership clubs going out and playing their reserve teams in theFootball League. I am talking about the top four or five teams,the likes of Man U and Liverpool and Chelsea,playing their younger players.

And I am sincerely sorry if I have irritated you by labelling you as "naive". I said that with all due respect to you. True,I am speaking as an outsider and have limited knowledge in this field but we are here to discuss the options and discuss football,aren't we,not to proclaim ourselves as the best of the lot?

righteous1
(member)
08/04/2007 14:20
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:



True,I am speaking as an outsider and have limited knowledge in this field but we are here to discuss the options and discuss football,aren't we,not to proclaim ourselves as the best of the lot?



I can assure you that i am not proclaiming to the 'best', whatever that means. Of course we are here to debate, but at the same time we should respect the opinions of others.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
09/04/2007 09:04
Re: The Big Issue 2

I do respect the opinions of others,only that I do get slightly vociferous in my tone when I am sure that something said is not right. Moreover,it's not that I do not accept mt my own shortcomings. I have had several interesting discussions with Sam over numerous issues and it's not been a case that everytime,I was right or that he was spot on all the time;I tend to see both sides of the picture really.

And I suppose we are here for discussing footballing,not debating about it. At least,our main aim should be to discuss the plethora of issues enveloping the game,although more often than note,these discuusions will tresspass into the territory of debates.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
09/04/2007 09:10
Re: The Big Issue 2

And what about this new issue? How many of our previous comments been published? And whose?

behnam
(member)
09/04/2007 16:39
Re: The Big Issue 2

I think the solution is rather simple. The reality of today's game is that big clubs will snatch the young players early, and won't give them any playing time. Why not adopt the strategies of some of Europe's other top leagues?

My proposal would be to allow any Premiership or Championship club to field their reserve team in one of their local leagues. The reserve sides would have the opportunity to achieve promotion through to League One, but no higher. The would also be ineligible to be crowned champions of any league they play in, and they would be ineligible to participate in the FA Cup or Carling Cup. Once in League One, the top non-reserve sides would achieve promotion.

I believe this would give the reserve players the much needed game time to keep them in form and allow them to develop. As for the argument that it would deny smaller clubs a spot in the higher divisions, my answer is that if you are not good enough to beat a reserve team, what business do you have in the top flights? I realise that this is a harsh answer, but the truth is often harsh.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
10/04/2007 08:38
Re: The Big Issue 2

For a decent player to improve himself, he needs to play amongst quality players,he must be insulated in a circuit where players with same or more quality reside. This is true for all walks of life and football,being a vital component of the life system,follows suit. Reserve sides of top Premeirship sides playing in the lower divisions would certainly help and improve these players and will also keep the confidenceof the players buoyed.

RichieC
(member)
10/04/2007 09:48
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

I don't have a great idea whether the lower leagues are as competitive as Mr. Barry made them out to be but the 'invasion' of the bigger English clubs into the football league would certainly help improve the standards of the leagues and even satisfy the footballing hunger of the top kids in the country.



While I cannot vouch for Leagues 1 and 2, the Championship is in rude health and in no way needs 'quality' charity handouts from the 'bigger' clubs! I personally feel that introducing reserve teams into the lower leagues devalues the status of those lower league teams...Not every club in the land sees the premiership as the be all and end all of their world. Sure, every club would love to reach the top, but a lot aren't too bothered whether chelsea or Man U win the title, so long as they whup their local rivals.

RichieC
(member)
10/04/2007 09:55
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

For a decent player to improve himself, he needs to play amongst quality players,he must be insulated in a circuit where players with same or more quality reside. This is true for all walks of life and football,being a vital component of the life system,follows suit. Reserve sides of top Premeirship sides playing in the lower divisions would certainly help and improve these players and will also keep the confidenceof the players buoyed.



Of course, I was forgetting the lower leagues are only there to act as testing grounds for the top clubs...silly me for assuming that we should be allowed to have any pride whatsoever in the league we're in...how could I forget we are here only to serve...why not just rename the lower leagues 'The Big 4's Reserves' Run Out League'?

The arrogance of the premier clubs knows no bounds!

behnam
(member)
10/04/2007 17:13
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

While I cannot vouch for Leagues 1 and 2, the Championship is in rude health and in no way needs 'quality' charity handouts from the 'bigger' clubs! I personally feel that introducing reserve teams into the lower leagues devalues the status of those lower league teams...Not every club in the land sees the premiership as the be all and end all of their world. Sure, every club would love to reach the top, but a lot aren't too bothered whether chelsea or Man U win the title, so long as they whup their local rivals.



I agree with you in that there are quite a few clubs not aiming to win the Premiership, but rather to be successful "locally" or against their biggest rivals. That is all good and part of the game. I don't think the aim is to take that away.

Quote:

Of course, I was forgetting the lower leagues are only there to act as testing grounds for the top clubs...silly me for assuming that we should be allowed to have any pride whatsoever in the league we're in...how could I forget we are here only to serve...why not just rename the lower leagues 'The Big 4's Reserves' Run Out League'?

The arrogance of the premier clubs knows no bounds!



I don't think the intention is to make the lower leagues "testing grounds" for the top clubs, as you put it. If it is, then it shouldn't be. I think the idea here should be to provide the reserve sides of both the Premiership AND Championship teams an opportunity at solid competitive play. It would be almost the same as loaning players out, except that clubs would still be "in control" of their players' development.

I can certainly see why you would think that this may devalue the lower leagues, but I must respectfully disagree. I think it all might boil down to two questions here: Do we want to improve the quality of English Football relative to the rest of the world? or do we want to decrease the gap between the top teams, and the lower teams?

RichieC
(member)
10/04/2007 20:37
Re: The Big Issue 2

Hi behnam,
I was responding more to Sub's quote about how it would be good to blood premiership players in the lower leagues (a concept i think is sound, but can be done already via the loan system...which also benefits the lower league clubs) and more the attitude that entailed (i.e. we have this nice big club and there's these insignificant teams down there we could use to better our players). (NB Sub, I wasn't having a go at you personally, but the attitude of the clubs )

A potential problem i forsee with allowing reserve sides into the lower leagues is, what happens when you end up with say, the top 6 sides in a lower league being made up of the reserve sides of bigger clubs? (Given the strength in depth some premiership squads have, it's entirely possible) We then end up with an even larger gap...one between the lower league clubs and the reserve sides and an almost unclosable one to the premiership. The big clubs would then see the reserve sides as a money spinner in their own right and buy more players just to have success with them. Who knows, we could end up with a Premiership consisting of the top 10 sides and their reserve teams...then what? A 2nd reserve side? (I know that's an extreme, but one never knows...)

And if the clubs really cared about raising the standard of football in the country (which i very much doubt they do, given their attitude to England Internationals) then they'd take steps which didn't involve improving their own situations...though i don't for one minute excpect them to as it's not really their duty.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
11/04/2007 09:05
Re: The Big Issue 2

to behnam:
Are you from India? I ask this because your nickname sounds very much Indish....I mean,behnam in Hindi(as well as in Bengali) means "without any name".

subhankar_mondal
(member)
11/04/2007 09:12
Re: The Big Issue 2

Richie, the system is that the reserve sides of the big Premiership clubs would never be promoted to the Premiership even if they do qualify to do so by virtue of their league table positions. This rule applies to Spain where the Barcelona and the Real Madrid reserves sometimes do finish in the top three but are not promoted for obvious reasons. Instead,the team bext to them in the table goes through to play top-flight football.

One disadvantage that has now entered my head pertaining to fostering top Premiership clubs' reserve teams in the lower leagues in England is that the corresponding clubs will then be leased to buy more players and this will once create the old problem of not keeping the foreign inflow of players in check. That 5+6 rule(or something of that sort) then needs to be introduced for the reserve sides.

RichieC
(member)
11/04/2007 11:04
Re: The Big Issue 2

Fair enough, but then you could end up with the ridiculous scenario whereby the 7th and 8th placed clubs are promoted.
Sure they get to play in the premiership, but is that really any sense of achievement?

badgerboy
(member)
11/04/2007 15:38
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

Fair enough, but then you could end up with the ridiculous scenario whereby the 7th and 8th placed clubs are promoted.
Sure they get to play in the premiership, but is that really any sense of achievement?




To be fair - although I'm against Rafa's proposals I think we might be overestimating the strength of the top club's reserve sides here - and/or underestimating the teams in the Championship.

After all Real Madrid B are in the relegation zone in the Spanish second division & Barcelona B in a similar position in one of the four regional third divisions.

The big issue for me wouldn't be the potential domination of the big clubs reserve sides - I doubt this would happen. It would be the affects of their participation in the first place. With 72 clubs in the Football League, even allowing just four reserve sides into the competition (and how could you stop at four?) would presumably mean four of the current 72 being replaced. As has already been said - all these clubs have their loyal fan base & replacing them with "Rich club's Reserve XI" would just be wrong.

Maybe these things work in Spain & elsewhere because there are far fewer clubs with a long & rich history than there are in England. Plus of course the vast majority of reserve teams play at a "regional league" level. The third level in Spain involves 80 clubs in four divisions - the same level in Germany 36 clubs in 2 divisions (though that is due to become the fourth level from 2008-09). I think I'm also right in saying that many of the teams at the Spanish third level are part-time (the equivalent of the sixth level in England now over 80% of the Conference clubs are full-time professional.

Perhaps if the likes of Liverpool & Chelsea reserves were willing to follow the examples of the likes of FC United of Manchester & AFC Wimbledon - starting at the very bottom (or as near the bottom as anyone else has to) of the pyramid. Working their way up from Combined Counties Division One or North West Counties Division Two would surely give a boost to average crowds in those leagues (as FC United of Manchester have) - & if they did make the Football League after six seasons or so - at least they would've earned it.

behnam
(member)
11/04/2007 15:47
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

SM
to behnam:
Are you from India? I ask this because your nickname sounds very much Indish....I mean,behnam in Hindi(as well as in Bengali) means "without any name".



No. I'm from Iran. behnam is my first name, and it means "the one with a good name/reputation"

Quote:

RichieC
The big clubs would then see the reserve sides as a money spinner in their own right and buy more players just to have success with them. Who knows, we could end up with a Premiership consisting of the top 10 sides and their reserve teams...then what? A 2nd reserve side? (I know that's an extreme, but one never knows...)



Money is a very important issue here. I couldn't agree with you more on clubs potentially using the reserve sides as money spinners. That is why my recommendation would be to prevent the reserve sides from receiving any revenue from TV contracts or the such...the reserve sides shouldn't become a second business...

As far as having 10 teams in the Premiership with their 10 reserve sides, there are ways to prevent that as well. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, reserve sides would not be allowed to progress further than League One.

Quote:

RichieC
Fair enough, but then you could end up with the ridiculous scenario whereby the 7th and 8th placed clubs are promoted.
Sure they get to play in the premiership, but is that really any sense of achievement?



A possible (but in my opinion, unlikely) scenario, it hasn't happened in Spain or in Germany, so I don't see why it would happen in England. You would expect that if a reserve side is doing well enough to even be in League One, the Premiership and Championship sides would be picking the best players from the reserve sides to play in the first team. This by itself should serve to maintain the level of reserve sides at a relatively low and constant stage.

Quote:

badgerboy
Perhaps if the likes of Liverpool & Chelsea reserves were willing to follow the examples of the likes of FC United of Manchester & AFC Wimbledon - starting at the very bottom (or as near the bottom as anyone else has to) of the pyramid. Working their way up from Combined Counties Division One or North West Counties Division Two would surely give a boost to average crowds in those leagues (as FC United of Manchester have) - & if they did make the Football League after six seasons or so - at least they would've earned it.



Agreed!!!

Dalbs
(member)
12/04/2007 02:55
Re: The Big Issue 2

I think Rafa Benitez has made a good point. I think putting teams comprised of the top clubs younger players into the football league is a great idea.
If you look at countries like Spain where the idea has been implemented it has worked and uncovered some real stars. Also, if you look at some lower league teams who act as feeder clubs to Premiership teams their teams have a large portion of youth players from their parent club anyway. Therefore if they aren't needed as feeder clubs they wont have to play youth players from bigger teams and may even uncover some good youngsters in their own youth system.
The main advantage of the idea is that youth players get much more chances. This will surely mean that more and more good English talent will emerge which would help the national team.
I do however think that some changes need to be made to the proposal.
Firstly, the teams that are entered into the lower leagues should be B teams rather than reserves as the reserves are needed to help players regain fitness after long injury lay offs.
Secondly, players should be registered to the B teams. This would prevent teams putting in the likes of Steven Gerrard or Arjen Robben into the B teams in one off matches to help them rise up the table.
Thirdly, First teams should not be allowed to play in the same league as their reserves. This has been implemented in Spain so B teams can not be promoted above the second division.
Although the proposal has its disadvantages I think the advantages would be well worth the problems.


Dalbs

subhankar_mondal
(member)
12/04/2007 08:32
Re: The Big Issue 2

It's not that all the Premeirship clubs will be able to field reserve sides in the lower reaches of the footballing pyramid. Only the top 4 or 5 can and so they should. You did a good job of mentioning that the players need to be registered. And another rule should be implemented: foreign players bought in the transfer market above a certain age(say 18 or 19) won't be allowed to play in the reserves.

What the reserves of the top clubs would get is the exposure to the routine rigors of professional football. These players would then acquire the mentality and this would enhance their development process.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
12/04/2007 08:36
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

Fair enough, but then you could end up with the ridiculous scenario whereby the 7th and 8th placed clubs are promoted.
Sure they get to play in the premiership, but is that really any sense of achievement?



No,that's not going to happen. It's just a theory and there is a huge gap between this theory and its practical equivalence.
Fair enough,if we do imagine such a scenario,then it's "fair enough" that the clubs who finish below the Premeirship reserves are the best after the reserves and they are being promoted. If the likes of Sunderland place themselves below the Liverpool reserves,then they are still the best of the rest and so be it:let they be promoted into the Premiership and let the Liverpool reserves stay where they are.

righteous1
(member)
13/04/2007 18:02
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

And what about this new issue? How many of our previous comments been published? And whose?



Sub in the new issue there are quotes from me, you, Richie C, and Richards from the first big issue thread, so it looks like they will continue to expand on publishing from this forum. Not that im in it for personal glory or anything !

RichieC
(member)
13/04/2007 23:31
Re: The Big Issue 2

Nor me

As a lot of others here have said, that the forum is getting more prominence is great as it is attracting new people here all the time. I, like several of us, joined around WC06 and often it went for days with no new posts. Now it's getting a lot busier and more interesting.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
14/04/2007 08:51
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

Quote:

And what about this new issue? How many of our previous comments been published? And whose?



Sub in the new issue there are quotes from me, you, Richie C, and Richards from the first big issue thread, so it looks like they will continue to expand on publishing from this forum. Not that im in it for personal glory or anything !



What are the comments mate? I am so so happy.....I am published in World Soccer. Sad that I don't have a copy and that most of the people here haven't heard about this magazines.
Please be generous enough to post the comments here,if you will. And also kindly explicate the format in which the commenst were published. Was it said anywhere that I am from India? If so,then oh God,people outside my country will know that in India,football is alive.

What about Sam? Weren't any of his commments published?

big_gaz
(member)
14/04/2007 11:18
Re: The Big Issue 2

If all UCL entrants have to name at least 8 home grown players in their 25-man squads from the 2008-9 season, this is going to be an important factor in the debate. These 8 players need to be capable of slotting into the first team at the highest level - at the very least they need to have had a decent run of 1st team football or the equivalent. Benitez certainly doesn't have 8 homegrown players who could do this at the moment. Having a B team playing in a full competitive league must look attractive in these circumstances, as a more competitive platform for young players than an 18-game Reserves competition.

RichieC
(member)
14/04/2007 12:28
Re: The Big Issue 2

Sub, the comments printed are all in the thread you started in the Magazine section on the forum (WorldSoccer replied)

Oxford_Che
(member)
14/04/2007 14:56
Re: The Big Issue 2

Alot of people who haven't experienced the lower leagues in England probably can't understand the passion and loyalty of the fans who follow teams. To allow the second string of top teams to compete against these sides would be insulting the intelligence of these fans.

If you look at the lower leagues in Italy, Spain etc you will see attendances barely making three figures, whereas, for example, Oxford United attract 6-7,000 people regularly in the fifth level of English footbal.

Sorry Rafa, but it's just not going to work

badgerboy
(member)
15/04/2007 14:08
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

If all UCL entrants have to name at least 8 home grown players in their 25-man squads from the 2008-9 season, this is going to be an important factor in the debate. These 8 players need to be capable of slotting into the first team at the highest level - at the very least they need to have had a decent run of 1st team football or the equivalent. Benitez certainly doesn't have 8 homegrown players who could do this at the moment.



Quoting myself from some info. I put on another forum earlier this season referring to the current season's Cl squads:

"Liverpool's 30 man squad has 5 "B"-listers - Stephen Darby, Adam Hammill, Daniel Guthrie, Lee Peltier & Craig Lindfield. Their 25 man
"A"-list has 4 CT players - Jamie Carragher, Stephen Warnock, Steven Gerrard & Robbie Fowler and 7 AT players - David Martin, Steve Finnan, Harry Kewell, Jermaine Pennant, Paul Anderson, Peter Crouch & Craig Bellamy. Anderson is a potential CT player of the future - as is Miki Roque.
The 7 potential CT players of the future are not well-known to me. Recent progress of Academy players into the first-team has not appeared spectacular. A Liverpool fan might have more insight?"

In the above CT = club-trained & AT = association trained.
The current rule is 2 CT + 2 more AT players. It will eventually be 4 + 4.

Perhaps the most important thing about the rule that it doesn't (and can't due to EU law) refer to the nationality of players. Instead of improving the situation in fact it encourages the big clubs to go out & buy players from smaller clubs - home & abroad - at a younger age. That way -if they fulfil their promise then they become "club-trained" players of the future.

Sam
(member)
15/04/2007 16:51
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quite. As I mentioned (I think on here somewhere) when the idea of such a quote was mentioned in the latter part of last year - if those regulations came in next season, Manchester United could list Cristiano Ronaldo as a 'homegrown' player, when he fairly manifestly isn't (albeit he wouldn't be at his current level had he stayed at Sporting).

As for the issue at the centre of this thread... because I'm aware I've not said anything on it, though I have been paying attention: I'm not sure how it could be introduced to the English league system right now in any case. Clearly if it happened, the reserves would have to start at the bottom of the pyramid and work their way up - you can't just shoehorn them into League One or the Championship straight away, and chuck other teams out to suit. Also, the idea that only the 'Big Four', or the top 10 in the Prem, or whoever, should be allowed to do this is ridiculous. The current 'Big Four' have only been FOUR since Abramovich came along. These things change, so would the clubs allowed to field reserve sides in the League change season by season as well?

It also devalues the league pyramid as a whole, to allow one club to field two teams in the same competition (even if it is in different divisions of the same competition). Spaniards have no problem with it but as someone else mentions above, look at lower league attendances in Spain compared with here. Do Castilla (as Real Madrid's reserve side call themselves) or Barcelona B actually have any fans OF THEIR OWN? Surely not.

If the big clubs want to give their reserve sides more competitive action, the answer is simple - treat the reserve leagues more seriously. Rafa Benitez is manager of a club whose reserves are struggling badly enough in the league they already play in, so what on earth does he think they'd do if they were playing in the Championship?

In Argentina, if you pay attention to my Voice of Football column or my website, you'll be aware that the top divison is known as the Primera A. The assumption foreigners always make is that 'Primera' refers to the division. It doesn't. The 'A' is the division - 'Primera' means it's the competition for the FIRST TEAM SQUADS of the teams involved. So there's a 'Segunda A' as well, not that it has any consequence to the wider public. And a 'Tercera A' and B and C and so on. And this continues right down to under-15s leagues for the youth sides of professional clubs. And if you visit Argentina and spend an afternoon flicking through the TV channels, you'll find matches from all of these divisions on TV. OK, nobody's watching. But the clubs take the reserve (and lower) competitions seriously. Because they know it's a good way of bringing through players.

A question: which country is currently producing the more technically able footballers?

It's frightening to say this where the essential topic is to do with organisation, but perhaps we should follow a South American model...


Sam

subhankar_mondal
(member)
16/04/2007 09:00
Re: The Big Issue 2

I see you side of the story Sam, and I do admit that your points are better than most others here. But Sam,I said that clubs who can field reserves in the lower divisions should do so. If Man U,Chelsea or Liverpool can play their reserves in the lower leagues and have the financial capacity to do so,then they should be allowed. Of course,you can't allow a Liverpool B side to encroach into the Championship from the very start,but let these players start playing from the very lowest tier of the footballing pyramid. As you suggest,the South American model is an ideal one,but is it possible to induct the same into English football? For that, a lot of ratifications are needed which at the moment won't be made.

RichieC
(member)
16/04/2007 09:25
Re: The Big Issue 2

But surely making them start from the bottom would then negate what Rafa was supposedly trying to achieve. If the reserves are subsequently not good enough to escape the lower divisions then they are not getting to play against 'good' teams to start with and would probably be better off staying in their native reserve league or being loaned to Championship clubs.

I agree with Sam here. I think the solution Rafa seeks (that of raising the standard of his reserves) would be better served by clubs taking the reserve league more seriously.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
16/04/2007 11:01
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

But surely making them start from the bottom would then negate what Rafa was supposedly trying to achieve. If the reserves are subsequently not good enough to escape the lower divisions then they are not getting to play against 'good' teams to start with




Then that would mean that the reserve players,perhaps sparing a few, are not good enough to make the top professional league and would expose the poor grassroot levels of the level. In a way,that would then be a blessing in disguise as the men in suits would know that all's not well in the lower levels of the game.

Rogorn
(member)
16/04/2007 12:01
Re: The Big Issue 2

First of all, I'd like to congratulate World Soccer for the choice of the people used to illustrate the topic. Rafa Benítez has worked in the other system, very successfully, and knows how it can work. On the other hand, Barry Fry defends his corner well, although I could do with the 'hasn't got a clue' bit. Surely he himself hasn't got a clue about a couple of things either (including one half of the topic at hand). Benítez doesn't present his opinions like that, for example.

Anyway, I'd like to draw your attention to the way they present the topic, which clearly illustrates the difference in concept. I think they have two different things in mind. Whereas Benítez speaks about young players getting experience (that's what Spain's 'filiales' are for), Fry talks about 'reserves'. The very names given to those teams reveal how different the idea is.

The B teams in Spain have an age limit. Once a player has grown out of it, he can't stay in a filial, a B team, any more. This also means that you cannot use the filial to play your players numbers 17-23 in your squad, or players coming back from injuries. Frankly, many players in Spain would take it as an insult. Also, you can't sign star players for the B team (unless they're younger than the age limit, Samuel Eto'o started like this at Real Madrid) or old glories. Also, once a filial player has played a number of games for the 'primer equipo' he can't go back down. He has to be made a part of the parent squad or released.

Compare all this to the 'reserve team' version in England and you can see how different they are. Spanish filiales are youth teams only, with lots of limits and regulations which actually hamper them in the competition. English reserves are the actual B teams, which you can make as big as you want, without restrictions. It wouldn't be money well spent probably, but nothing stops Roman et al from buying 46 top players and stick half in the reserve team games.

Now, bearing this in mind, there's a couple of curious points. Number one is that Benítez, one of the most successful 'entrenadores del filial' there has been, can trumpet this system all he wants, but it doesn't guarantee that the product will be better. Look at the A teams of Real Madrid and Barcelona, for example, and see how many home-grown players they have. The same, or with minimal differences, as other behemoths of the European game, like Manchester United, Bayern or Milan. Sometimes they get a good batch of players coming up together (the famous Quinta del Buitre at Real Madrid in the 80s), but Man U did that too with Fergie's Fledglings using a different system. So none is better. At the end of they day the big clubs want 23 top players, and they'll do anything they need to get them - including, or rather starting with, letting go of their local boys which aren't good enough.

The other curious thing is that while the Spanish system is advocated for England, in Spain there are advocates for changing the system to the English one: putting the B teams in their own league so that they can all play guys their age, so that competition is not distorted by difference of aims and of rules for filiales, and so that other teams for other cities can take their places and have football teams higher up.

At the end of the day, custom and habit might be the decider in this. England has never had this system and Spain has always had it, so things will continue as they are. No harm in the debate, though. As long as we are careful with saying who 'has got a clue' about what.

TheGer
(member)
16/04/2007 15:48
Re: The Big Issue 2

Although most people seem to be against this idea of introducing Man Utd B and Chelsea B etc. If Chelsea reserves were to join the football league they would end up at the top of the championship.
It all stems from the money that the premiership are recieving and the gap between the top flite and football league is going to widen. All teams in the football league are important and Benitez is degrading football.
Imagine sky sports werent there, this discussion wouldnt even be happening because football league clubs would be far closer to the premierships elite.
Rafa has a point, but if he is complaing he should just cut back his squad and play his youngsters.

Rogorn
(member)
16/04/2007 20:15
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

In Argentina (...) 'A' is the division - 'Primera' means it's the competition for the FIRST TEAM SQUADS of the teams involved. So there's a 'Segunda A' as well, not that it has any consequence to the wider public. And a 'Tercera A' and B and C and so on. And this continues right down to under-15s leagues for the youth sides of professional clubs. And if you visit Argentina and spend an afternoon flicking through the TV channels, you'll find matches from all of these divisions on TV. OK, nobody's watching. But the clubs take the reserve (and lower) competitions seriously. Because they know it's a good way of bringing through players. A question: which country is currently producing the more technically able footballers?

It's frightening to say this where the essential topic is to do with organisation, but perhaps we should follow a South American model...


This is very interesting. But notice something: Argentinian clubs lose their best players very early (and earlier each time), which fosters a kind of 'battlefield promotion' turnover of players. A club losing their three, four, best players every six months and having hardly any money to sign more, are going to have to promote from within all the time. In European clubs sometimes the problem with young players breaking into first teams is simply that the incumbent is just too good to be dislodged from the team. How many young players is Steven Gerrard going to block from playing for Liverpool just because he's so good that you don't need anyone else? Answer: at least one a year for as long as he's in the starting XI.

That doesn't happen in Argentina. Quite the opposite, in fact. In the player ahead of you in the pecking order plays really well, your own chances of taking his place in a few months' time increase with each good performance, as he'll be snapped up soon by a foreign team. In Europe good performances would mean an extended contract for him and a transfer request from you.

So in this case the lack of opportunities comes from inside the club, not from the lack of quality of the youngsters. Many discarded players go on to make good careers elsewhere and some even return to a top club after a few years.

The market has always regulated itself. At the end of the day, if you ask the top clubs if they want them good or they want them local, they'll say that both would be best, but that they'd rather have them good. And that's what they do all the time. The best man for the best post, isn't that what every society advocates for all its jobs?

Sam
(member)
17/04/2007 00:12
Re: The Big Issue 2

Um, the players who move to big European clubs from Argentina are the best 10 or 15 in the league at the most, not the best half-dozen or so from each team. Sure, the 'turnover' is a lot faster there, but it's not THAT much faster. You've got a point, but it doesn't render the whole idea of an Argentina-like reserve system useless in England...

Sam

Ryan_Gay
(member)
17/04/2007 13:56
Re: The Big Issue 2

I am totally against the idea of introducing top flight 'b' teams to the league structure, I think it would totally de-value the current system. I follow league two football, I'm a Bristol Rovers Fan and what keeps smaller teams such as mine going is the terrific fan base that come to support their side every week, how many people are going to go and watch Chelsea's B side play week in week out? Following football is a way of life for many supporters and i think it will be extremely disrespectful if all of a sudden there sides had to play top flight reserve sides week in week out. Also there loan system in place is already perfectly accepteable. Top flight sides can send players on loan to gain valuable experience and at the same time smaller clubs are benfitting from such an allowance.

Rogorn
(member)
17/04/2007 17:27
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

Um, the players who move to big European clubs from Argentina are the best 10 or 15 in the league at the most, not the best half-dozen or so from each team. Sure, the 'turnover' is a lot faster there, but it's not THAT much faster. You've got a point, but it doesn't render the whole idea of an Argentina-like reserve system useless in England.


You have the pulse on the country, so I'll give you some homework to do, hehe. It might even be useful for your site.

Check the transfers for the past four or six windows, and see who's left. Check also which deserving players didn´t get a transfer, if any. And also whether lesser teams lost players not to European clubs but to top Argentinian teams like River or Boca. Maybe say Quilmes lost a couple to Europe (many go to less glamorous destinations from clubs really far down the league table, even second division Argentinian clubs sell players abroad) and another couple to one of these two. I'd be grateful if you could find the time to do it.

And also to hear how the B-team system works in other countries from which we have posters, and what things are different. India, Denmark, Germany? In Germany they can enter the Cup, I believe, and Werder B can beat Bayern "A", for example. In Spain they used to be allowed in (Castilla even got to play in the Cup Winners' Cup), but not any more.

Sam
(member)
17/04/2007 22:15
Re: The Big Issue 2

I'm not sure when I'll have the time (no internet at work, etc. and so forth), but I'll definitely look into it if you keep reminding me, it's an interesting idea. Of course, some less fashionable clubs do sell straight to Europe - Liverpool's recent policy of recruiting Argentines who seem to be totally unheard of in their home towns being a good example - but generally European scouts are lazy enough to let River and Boca cream the top players off, and have them for a year or two before they go on to Europe.

That being said, arguably Argentina's best 'academy', both historically and currently (Newell's perhaps run them close) is that of River - so that's a fair few talented kids who've skipped the bottom hurdle right away and gone in at the top (of the Argentinian pile of clubs at least)...

I didn't know about Castilla playing the CWC. That is interesting.


Sam

Rogorn
(member)
18/04/2007 10:12
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

I didn't know about Castilla playing the CWC. That is interesting.


It's quite a famous story. Castilla got to the final of Spain's Cup competition, the Copa del Rey, in 1980, where they played... Real Madrid. They were hammered 6-1 (surprise, surprise), but as Madrid did the double, Castilla played in the CWC as lucky losers. Mind you, to reach that final they had eliminated FOUR top division clubs in home-and-away rounds, including the two who finished second and third that year in the league. Then, in the CWC, they only played one round, against none other than West Ham. Castilla won at home 3-1 then lost in London 5-1.

So, this is 'officially' the most successful B team ever. But if someone is afraid that something like that could happen again, we only have to remember that in all these years it has happened only once. Besides, I suppose that accepting reserve teams into the league system with no restrictions whatsoever, like those imposed on Spanish clubs, is a non-starter as an option. Helping youngsters compete is one thing. Having full-strength second teams is a very different concept, and I think it should be avoided.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
18/04/2007 11:26
Re: The Big Issue 2

Great story that. I am indebeted you for the little piece of knowledge.

subhankar_mondal
(member)
18/04/2007 11:32
Re: The Big Issue 2

When youngsters play youngsters,you can only measure players against those of the same age and though,millions induct themselves into football academies,only the chosen few make it big. So when you have a bunch a really talented young kids playing a group of mediocre at best or slightly average kids,you don't actually improve the standards of the first bunch,except perhaps pouring a deluge of confidence on them,confidence that often tend to knock on the doors of complacency. Sam,I am certain that someone sensible like you realises the significant the importance of promoting and developing the grassroots level in England,as the country isn't producing a volley of raw diamonds. I am not saying that playing reserves against professional sides in the lower tier of the footballing pyramid would definitely work,nut there's no guarantee that it won't. So,what not try it out?

Dalbs
(member)
18/04/2007 19:33
Re: The Big Issue 2

Actually in Spain a B team and their Parent team can not play in the same league so if the Castilla won the second division they wouldn't go into the first division. Also, if Real Madrid somehow got relegated even if Castilla won the second division both teams would be relegated down a division.
Thanks for that interesting fact though. And is that really true.

Sam
(member)
18/04/2007 22:31
Re: The Big Issue 2

Rogorn - now you expand on it I have a feeling Phil Ball may mention it in passing in his excellent book Morbo. But if he does I'd totally forgotten about it, so thanks again.

Sub:
Quote:

I am not saying that playing reserves against professional sides in the lower tier of the footballing pyramid would definitely work,nut there's no guarantee that it won't. So,what not try it out?



Because it would tear up a huge part of our footballing heritage, be bloody difficult to reverse, and there's no real reason to suppose it would work any more effectively than our current system - we're all discussing the ins and outs in contrast to Spain's system, but it's not as if their national side is significantly more successful, is it?

I'll say again: before Benítez starts saying the reserve leagues don't provide his kids with a challenge, he should look at whereabouts those kids are currently sitting in said reserve league. Seems to me they're finding it hard enough already!


Sam

subhankar_mondal
(member)
19/04/2007 04:59
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:



we're all discussing the ins and outs in contrast to Spain's system, but it's not as if their national side is significantly more successful, is it?

Sam



But certainly Spain appear to be producing more and more truly quality youngsters and technically gifted players,players who are superior when taken individually against their England counterparts.

RichieC
(member)
19/04/2007 09:10
Re: The Big Issue 2

Football is a team game. Spain have always produced talented, gifted youngsters, as has brazil, yet Spain have always disappointed in major tournaments and Brazil only started winning world cups again when they started playing as a team and being more defensive, rather than letting a bunch of individuals do what they want. Yes you need talent, but there's little point of having a bunch of superstars if they can't gel as a coherent unit.

badgerboy
(member)
19/04/2007 11:07
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

So, this is 'officially' the most successful B team ever. But if someone is afraid that something like that could happen again, we only have to remember that in all these years it has happened only once.



Funnily enough this year both Salzburg & Salzburg Amateurs reached the Austrian Cup semi-finals - but less funnily (for Salzburg fans anyway) they both lost.

And - more obscurely - Ruzomberok's "B" team are in the Slovakian Cup Semi-Finals.

I'm not quite sure what UEFA's rule is on such things these days. Presumably they don't allow two of the same team into the same competition (ownership rules) but one in the CL & one in the UEFA Cup? Or if the "B" team qualifies for Europe can the first team take their place?

There's another "situation" to keep an eye on in Turkey. Two teams from the city of Kayseri - but unlike most "normal" local rivals these ones seem to "love" each other. They already swapped identities once (when the supposedly secondary club Erciyesspor got promoted to the Turkish Superliga). Now - although the "new" Erciyesspor are languishing in the relegation zone while Kayserispor are vieing for a European spot through the league the secondary team are also Cup semi-finalists - and won the first leg against Trabzonspor 1-0 away. If they get to the final AND stay up then I suspect some more identity-switching (to allow the "main" club to play in Europe) isn't out of the question...

UEFA article on the friendship between the two teams.

adriansfc
(member)
22/04/2007 16:49
Re: The Big Issue 2

Again we see Benitez trying to bring in ideas from Spain, and this one is about as clever as signing Antonio Nunez.

If he feels the reserve league isn't competitive enough, loan out the players.

The strength of the Football League, and it's support is far beyond that of other European nations. Many fans enjoy these leagues, following them as much, if not more than Premiership fans. This cannot be allowed to change. Big clubs are running football enough, making it almost impossible to compete. Destroying the lower leagues would be a step too far. Who on earth want to support Liverpool Reserves if Liverpool are playing at the same time? There'd be no atmosphere, it would just turn very competitive, well supported leagues into a joke.

GillsMan
(member)
23/04/2007 19:44
Re: The Big Issue 2

Being a West Ham and Gillingham fan, perhaps I can see both sides of the argument (although it's debatable as to whether or not West Ham could be considered to be a big club right now). Overall, I'm not overly opposed to this, I think that giving youth players the chance to play in a more competitive league for their club week in week out would be a good idea. Although, the problem with this would be smaller clubs having less opportunity to loan in young talent and thereby perhaps losing out on potential success.

I guess I'm squarely on the fence with this.

Brian_Elliott
(member)
28/04/2007 13:57
Re: The Big Issue 2

My apologies, but I haven't yet read all of the replies here. But of course, I have read the opinions of Benitez and Fry in this month's issue.

Whilst I have tremendous respect for Benitez as a manager, I can't help but think that he holds his opinion only because it suits him. Liverpool do not particularly want to send players on loan, because that takes them out of Liverpool's training methods, and away from Benitez's (or his assistant's) tactical vision. This impedes their progression in becoming the player that he wants them to be. Note that I am not saying that going on loan to lower-level club will stop that player developing into a good player overall.

In this instance, Fry is correct, and if Liverpool want their players to gain more experience from playing, they should send them out on loan to lower-level clubs. As Fry correctly pointed out (and I have seen this first-hand in the Irish Premier League), people love these clubs as dearly as any investor-backed Premiership club. I'm sure that there are some lower-level clubs that would be delighted to take five or six Liverpool youth players into their squad, but it would be somewhat insulting for those same clubs to play against Premiership reserve teams every other week.

The Championship and League One etc have proved again and again to be tremendously exciting leagues for their fans. Adding reserve teams of the richest clubs to that, would dilute much of that excitement.

richards
(member)
01/05/2007 17:22
Re: The Big Issue 2

Excellent post Brian and a very astute point about coaches like Benitez wanting to ensure players adhere to their club's training regimes.

stephen_woodside
(member)
02/05/2007 17:32
Re: The Big Issue 2

Certainly not.Why should Premier League Reserve clubs play in the football league? Statiscally,each football league division is tighter than the premiership which is now monotonous,where you generally get Chelsea, Manchester United,Arsenal and Liverpool vying for the top four positions.Rafa Benitez thoughts are completely absurd and his lack of passion for the english game is clearly lacking,maybe thats why it is clearly evident that Benitez is having so much success in European competitions,but his side are falling short in their own domestic league.I find it strange how he says things become impossible if you dont give young players the chance to play yet he has signed countless young players throughout the continent.Why cant Liverpool simply loan out young players for experience because clearly he is not going to play them for the first team.Obviously Liverpool's youth policy is not working,it has not been working for some time now.Michael Owen,Robbie Fowler,Steve McManaman,Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher have all come through the youth system and have all had good careers.Answers on a postcard as to name a successful player who has come through the ranks in more recent times.Simply give youth a chance and we can then improve the standard on the international scene.

Rogorn
(member)
03/05/2007 17:12
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

Rafa Benitez thoughts are completely absurd and his lack of passion for the english game is clearly lacking,maybe thats why it is clearly evident that Benitez is having so much success in European competitions,but his side are falling short in their own domestic league.



It mustn't be so 'absurd' when the system is used in other countries, and he has first hand experience of it. Which everyone else answering him haven't.

Benítez lacks passion for the English game? Absolutely not. For starters, he went to manage there. Then, he's presiding over a period of continued success in which Liverpool are punching their weight in the Premiership (they are way behind Chelsea and Manchester United, and deservedly so - and they were there before he came) and way above it in the Champions League, with domestic cup finals in between. Just having a couple of ideas from previous experiences abroad doesn't mean he 'lacks passion'. And if he does because his results aren't good enough, what about the others finishing below him in the Premiership?

subhankar_mondal
(member)
04/05/2007 10:38
Re: The Big Issue 2

What Rafael Bentez needs at Liverpool is funds which he is promised($40 million) next season. Frankly speaking,with the team that Liverpool has at the moment,it's not probable to win the Premiership,given that Chelsea have such a large squad with almost like-for-like players in each department. But Rafa has shown what he is capable of--- bringing the Champions League trophy in his first season in charge of the Merseyside club(granted that AC Milan and Steven Gerrard and that Dudek antic on the goalline helped his cause a lot) and then the FA Cup(again with SOME help from Gerrard) and now another Champions League final. You cannot criticize someone with that kind of a track record,never. And I am glad that there's someone here on this forum who thinks alike.

badgerboy
(member)
04/05/2007 10:53
Re: The Big Issue 2

Quote:

You cannot criticize someone with that kind of a track record,never. And I am glad that there's someone here on this forum who thinks alike.




I find your "logic" very strange sometimes Sub. I'd agree that - whatever Liverpool's domestic failings - it's difficult to criticise Benitez's "track-record" as a manager given he's now reached two CL finals.

But I'm not really sure what that has to do with his opinions on all things football. I would dare to suggest that Rafa's been a bit too busy since he arrived in England to spend too much time watching Championship football, & saying - it works in Spain (a fact I'm not sure everyone agrees with anyway) so it ought to work in England - doesn't really cut it.

stephen_woodside
(member)
04/05/2007 11:25
Re: The Big Issue 2

Lets not cut to the chase here.Firstly Rafa has had plenty of money to spend since his arrival to Liverpool,ok not in the Chelsea bracket but how long have we got to listen to reds fans mentioning what lack of money they have.Lack of money surely cant be an excuse as the reds have had the upper hand over Chelsea of late.

Why is it also strange that Liverpool fans have bemoaned the fact that Chelsea have been "buying te league" but stangely enough,i personally have heard no reds fans complaining about George Gilette and Tom Hicks millions being poured into the clubs coffers.

About Benitez' lack of passion in the english game.I still do not believe he has enough of it.Take saturdays game for instance at Fratton Park.He was totally emotionless,fair enough,the season is almost up but the reds can still drop money by being overtaken by Arsenal.The money they would lose is just a dip in the ocean for them now however whereas it means a hell of a lot more to other clubs to gain extra revenue.

So lack of money should not be made the sole excuse for Liverpool's failure in the Premiership,afte