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worldsoccerAdministrator
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The Big Issue
      #2734 - 16/03/2007 11:34

This month, Michel Platini argues the case for reducing the number of Champions League entrants from Spain, Italy and England, while Arsene Wenger argues in favour of retaining the status quo.

The article can be found here:

The Big Issue

Edited by worldsoccer (16/03/2007 11:36)


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righteous1
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: worldsoccer]
      #2737 - 16/03/2007 20:08

While I think that Michel Platini has the right goals, in terms of broadening the scope of the Chmaions League with more teams from 'lesser' nations, I think he is wrong in his way of doing it.

I think that the Champions League should be expanded, with the Uefa Cup being scrapped to make room. The top 5 or 6 from the big leagues could then qualify, as well as the top two from weaker leagues. The competition could be doubled in size, to 16 groups of four after the initial qualifying stage, and a new round of 32 introduced after the group stage.

It should be renamed back to the European Cup. I love the Champions League as a competition, but the Uefa Cup has lost is lustre in comparison, only coming alive as a competition from the last 8 onwards. Expanding the Champions League would ensure that the lesser European leagues are strengthened, as well as returning the competition back to a truly European contest, not just a competition for Europe's rich.

More Champions league places for lower ranked clubs would also strengthen domestic leagues. In England in particular, the 4 Champions League places are usually sown up before the season kicks off, introducing another 1 or 2 places would mean different teams have the opportunity to compete as the 5th placed team is rarely the same year on year.


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Sam
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: righteous1]
      #2741 - 16/03/2007 22:39

Righteous, welcome to the forum first of all. And admin, good idea for a new section to it!

I remember having a debate with Subhankar a few months ago about the format for the Champs League. Personally the group stages bore me rigid, almost entirely without exception (Barca's matches against Chelsea this season and against Man United in 1998-1999 being the exceptions), and are one example of how the competition is tailored to allow the big clubs to make ever more money from football's biggest cash cow.

I don't think anyone would argue with the statement that allowing more champions from smaller footballing nations into the competition is a good idea. I wouldn't agree with expanding the competition, I think it's bloated enough already and scrapping the UEFA Cup would take away one platform on which eastern European teams CAN actually compete on something like a level footing - OK, none are in the latter stages this season, but they have been recently and CSKA won the thing a couple of seasons ago. It would also, of course, dilute the overall quality of the Champs League. Not to mention making it a little boring having too many sides from two or three nations in the draw.

Personally, I like Platini's idea of reducing England, Spain and Italy's quota to three clubs, or at least forcing them to play off against each other in the third qualifying round. Part of the draw of the competition for me is the exoticism of it, and seeing the same sides every season (particularly from the Premiership) isn't the best way of ensuring excitement. And whether it's called the Champions League or the European Cup, should the fourth best team in ANY country really be allowed into it?

I agree about 'rolling back' the name, though. I'm only 22 but I still prefer to call it the European Cup in conversation. Champions League is just so... garish.


Sam

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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre


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Sam
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: Sam]
      #2744 - 17/03/2007 00:23

Oh, and just to add as far as the choice of interviewees is concerned:

No manager of one of England's current 'Big Four' is going to say anything other than 'England should have four CL representatives'. If it's cut to three, all of a sudden Wenger's NOT going to be absolutely certain that he'll be in it next season (I know it won't come in as from this season, of course, but you get my meaning). Wenger, Benítez and Sir (maybe not Maureen because he knows he'll win the league anyway) will all say that four English sides should be allowed in, of course.

If it stays at four, then Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal all know they'll be in next season's CL. The situation in Spain and Italy is slightly more fluid, but in England it's pretty much written in stone - even when Liverpool only finished 5th they STILL managed to enter the bloody thing!


Sam

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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre


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subhankar_mondal
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: worldsoccer]
      #2745 - 17/03/2007 04:05

Thanks to the World Soccer first of all for coming up with this brilliant new idea. And also a hearty welcome to Righteous to this forum.

--------------------
Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.extra-football.com.


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subhankar_mondal
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: Sam]
      #2746 - 17/03/2007 04:31

I can easily comprehend,Sam, why and how you feel so stulltified as far as the group stage of the UEFA Champions League is concerned. I too was really pissed off by the two group stages but I like the current format of the Champions League.

We already have had a good discussion about the format and I won't really get deep into it once more. But you need to acknowledge that the Champions League is not entirely or purely football;the element of finanace creeps in as well. 32 teams in the Champions League proper implies that more money from revenue and ads will be floated around and not only for an odd tie but for much longer and this is going to help the clubs outside the G14 elite. Granted,the group stage does not necessarily produce the best football but as far as entertainment in terms of drama and suspense are considered,well,you can hardly argue. Last season,a defeat to Benfica knocked Manchester United out not only of the Group Stage of the Champions League but the consolation of the back door entry to the UEFA Cup too was taken away from them. This season,had Barca lost to Bremen at Camp Nou,they too would have been eliminated and similar would have been the case for Man U,this time again against Benfica at Old Trafford. Most of the time,the opening three or four games in the group stage do not promise drama or competition,but once a top side slips up as they often tend to do enigmatically,things start to open up to a reasonable extent.

And I am resentful towards Pplatini's proposal to allow three teams from Spain,Italy and England. Everyone knows that in European club football,these are three most popular and best domestic leagues and produce either the winner or the finalists in the Champions League. The balance of power cannot be shifted and as an outsider who lives far away from Europe,I would not like any so-called lesser team come from an East European nation and play some third-rate football instead of a big team exhibiting some out-of-the-football. I do sympathise with Platini to a good degree:I can see his stance of drafting in the less privileged clubs into the competition but he needs to realise the European Champions League provides the best fotball in the world,the best players in the world are here and we,the football lovers want to keep things as they are. Just take at the teams that are in the last 8 of the UEFA Cup this season. There are 3 clubs from Spain,2 from Germany and 1 each from England,Holland and Portugal. Where are the clubs from Eastern Europe or the less privileged nations?

--------------------
Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.extra-football.com.


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righteous1
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: subhankar_mondal]
      #2751 - 17/03/2007 08:40

Hi,

Sam I can see your point about CSKA winning the Uefa, but they have also competed very well in the Champions League proper, unlucky to go out in the group stage this season. In another group, they would have made it through.

The reason they are a strong side is because they have the money to back big signings. Football is all about money now at the highest level, we cannot change that in my opinion. The big European teams get the big TV deals because they are the teams that most people want to watch. For all their rich history, games such as Steaua Bucharest vs Shaktar Donetsk just don't get the pulses racing for the TV viewing public in the main.

The best bit about the Champions League in my opinion is the fact that you get huge games every year involving the teams with the most succesful history, the most fans, and the best players. Of course, these happen to be the richest teams as well, but this is inevitable after football ingratiated itself with capitalism.

The Champions League can still produce shocks of a sort, who would have predicted Liverpool winning in '05? Or Porto v Monaco as the final in '04?

In my opinion having less wealthy, weaker teams in the competition will just lead to to a weaker competition. The majority of Eastern European teams do not have the financial infastructure or global fan base to compete at the top level, the 4th, 5th placed teams in the strongest leagues do.

In my opinion, even if the Champions of Serbia, Croatia, Moldova etc were allowed straight through to the group stage, it wouldn't stop the exodus of their top players to the top European sides and leagues. Footballers are like WAGS, they go where the money is.


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Sam
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: righteous1]
      #2754 - 17/03/2007 13:02

Quote:

In my opinion having less wealthy, weaker teams in the competition will just lead to to a weaker competition. The majority of Eastern European teams do not have the financial infastructure or global fan base to compete at the top level, the 4th, 5th placed teams in the strongest leagues do.

In my opinion, even if the Champions of Serbia, Croatia, Moldova etc were allowed straight through to the group stage, it wouldn't stop the exodus of their top players to the top European sides and leagues. Footballers are like WAGS, they go where the money is.




Sure. but wouldn't the chance to play in the Chumps League more often 'level the playing field' over a few seasons in this regard? The clubs would improve with European experience and their best players would be more likely to stay a little longer.

I think it's worth mentioning in a similar context the recent agreement among Estonia, Latvia and a couple of other Baltic nations to form a sort of mini 'Baltic Champions League' as a way to allow the biggest clubs from their countries to get more European experience, and thus hopefully do better if or when they reach the latter qualifying rounds of the real thing. Europe's got a hell of a lot of nations, so more regional competitions like this, if they're sensibly run and - why not? - UEFA endorsed, could perhaps be the way forward initially.


Sam

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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre


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righteous1
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: Sam]
      #2758 - 17/03/2007 17:50

You make a good point about the players potentially staying at 'weaker' clubs longer if they are in European competition regularly, but I don't think this would happen.

If you look at Ajax and PSV for example, they are always in European competition, but their best players still leave season after season for other wealthier clubs. The best players have always left the Dutch league, but they once stayed until 25/26 after a good grounding and after a good few years service, now more often than not they leave at 20/21, despite already being in Europe, and with big clubs, in their home country.

I agree with the benefits of smaller regional competitions though, this could make teams more competitive on the Champions League stage, but if these are going to exist anyway, why the need to change the structure of the Champions League now? If they are improving there should be more chance of them coming through the preliminary rounds anyway.

I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree on this! good to have some debate though, hopefully Michel Platini will listen to all sides before he tries to put through his proposals. The Champions League will still be a great competition, whatever changes they make. After the disappiontment of the World Cup, quality wise, I think the Champions League has overtaken International football in terms of standard of play.


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subhankar_mondal
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: righteous1]
      #2765 - 19/03/2007 07:06

Sam,you say about creating a "level playing field" by drafting in the top teams from the less privileged European countries. To throw it in as a moral element is justified but to be frank,that's just sustaining the illusion that these clubs can compete at the highest level. These clubs do go into the qualifying rounds of the Champions League but still fail to make it to the group stage. Why? Because they simply are not good enough,that's why! Had they been good enough to play in the Champions Legue proper,then they would have certainly got past the preliminary hurdles. Sometimes,what you want and what you should get do not coincide. For instance,on a personal note,I would like a Turkish side to feature regularly in the knockout stage but for the sheer delight of watching oppsotion teams suffer in "hell" but that doesn't hapen as Turkish teams re not technically at par with the more illustrious Europan teams,at least not every season.

--------------------
Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.extra-football.com.


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subhankar_mondal
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: righteous1]
      #2766 - 19/03/2007 07:16

Certainly the Champions League is the forum for the best players to exhibit their talents and calibre. i have made this remark earlier and I stick to it. That's why I don't want any shuffling in the Chamopions League format or the number of teamd from the top three. The champions from the Eastern European nations do go into the quualifying rounds and there theyfail. We don't want these second-rate or third-rate teams to be drafted in directly into the Champions League proper and spoil the show. They do pass through to the UEFA Cup but save one or two,don't even make it to the latter rounds. For those who contradict this,let them take a glance at the tems in the quarter-finals of this season's UEFA Cup.

--------------------
Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.extra-football.com.


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subhankar_mondal
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: righteous1]
      #2767 - 19/03/2007 07:21

And heh,it's isn't Platini says it all,Platini does it all scenario. The proposal has to be ratfied by the UEFA committee and most of the members,as I hear,are pretty much against the notion. Moreover,the change,if at all made,won't be at all implemented until 2009 or even 2010 anyway.....

--------------------
Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.extra-football.com.


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RichieC
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: subhankar_mondal]
      #2805 - 19/03/2007 14:18

Personally, I feel all the european competitions were devalued when they allowed non champions into the European cup. It immediately relegated the Uefa cup to a 'mid table' competition where it had previously been for runners up and made nonsense of the concept of the European cup, that being the winners of the domestic leagues battling to see who was the best in Europe. To then call it the contrived 'champions league' (which technically should have an apostrophe somewhere in there) further devalues a once great competition. Champions League? Where are the champions? Liverpool were far from it when they won. Get back to what it chould be and stop pandering to the financial side of it. I agree with the direction Platini is going. The likelihood of his succeeding is sadly small.

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richards
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: RichieC]
      #2807 - 19/03/2007 15:24

I agree with everything Sam said in his original post. However, one thing concerns me. If Platini's plan goes through with this I worry that it will strengthen G-14s desire to set up a rival breakaway competition. For them the competition is not about finding the best club team in Europe, it's about ensuring a regular income stream. If they can't do this within Uefa, they'll look for ways to do it on their own.

Looking at the English representatives and it’s not too fanciful to assume that both Arsenal and Liverpool will be fighting for the third spot on a regular basis. Arsenal need the money to repay the loans on the Emirates and Liverpool will be in the same boat when the new Anfield is constructed. They have budgeted for European participation on an annual basis.

I sense there’ll be less resistance to this idea in Spain and Italy. In Spain, there’s an acceptance that there are two big clubs plus a few who can challenge sporadically, while in Italy, it’s 3 big teams plus the rest. Only in England would the case be made for there being four big clubs. Admittedly, until Abramovich’s millions, no one would have regarded Chelsea as a big club, but provided he stays around, then they will be competing.


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Oxford_Che
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: worldsoccer]
      #2811 - 19/03/2007 19:47

I usually don’t take a big interest in the politics of football. To me, it seems like ten overweight, balding men sitting in a top-of-the-range conference centre eating and drinking. Every now and again, they might possibly talk about football.

The recent appointment of Michel Platini as UEFA president still didn’t catch too much of my attention.

But that changed after I read Jonathan Wilson’s excellent book Behind The Curtain: Travels in Eastern European Football. After reading the book, I suddenly took a great interest in Platini’s ideas. In particular, the proposed move to reduce the maximum number of teams per country in the Champions League to three, and also the proposal to increase the number of teams in the European Championships from 16 to 24.

In Behind The Curtain, Wilson charts the freefall of Eastern European football, and cites one of the main reasons for the decline as the gulf between clubs in the ‘big four’ (England, Spain, Italy, Germany) and the rest of Europe. He states: “How can Eastern clubs compete? How can they build facilities for the modern development of players? How can they stop their best players leaving? How can they ever build a side when they know any player who shows any talent will be tempted away? The answer is simple: without the help of a wealthy financial backer, they can’t”

In essence, it all comes down to money. Money attained by the big clubs, the majority of it through television money. Television money fuelled by the glitz and glamour of the Champions League. The only likely contenders for the Champions League title come from England, Spain, Germany and Italy.

Of course, there are other factors that have been pivotal in the downfall of Eastern European football. The end of the Cold War and the division of the USSR and Yugoslavia have had a massive bearing on it, as well as war in the Balkans, but the hogging of the limelight and the income from bigger clubs has probably been the biggest factor.

Ever since the advent of the Champions League as we know it today, with a group stage and then a knockout stage, no Eastern European club has even come close to winning it.

In the last year of the old European Cup in 1991, when it was just a knockout stage, it was won by Yugoslavian side Red Star Belgrade. Five years before that in 1986, Steaua Bucharest of Romania won the European Cup and were runners up in 1989.

Since the turn of the century, only Dynamo Kiev and Spartak Moscow have managed to qualify for the group stages on a regular basis.

It certainly says something about the exclusion of Eastern European clubs in the current Champions League format. Is it really right that the champions of a country should have to go through two or three qualifying rounds, while the fourth best team of another country can qualify by playing one qualifying round?

Michel Platini’s proposals, however, offer a ray of hope to Eastern European clubs.

Reducing the amount of entries from the big leagues is not suddenly going to create an influx of Eastern European clubs into the Champions League, but it will at least give them a much better chance of progressing through to the group stages and collecting a handsome sum of money to help them rebuild. Not only that, but it will hopefully shift some of the limelight away from the big powers and towards Eastern Europe.

Another problem is that the people of, for instance, Bucharest, would much rather watch a Premiership game on the television than go and watch their local team. If an Eastern European side were to put on a decent showing in European competition then it would whip up some interest and hopefully we would see the fans flocking back to grounds.

Without changes to the current format though, I don’t think we will ever see the likes of Red Star Belgrade in 1991 or Steaua Bucharest in 1986 ever again, which will be a damn right shame.

Scrap that, it’ll be a damn right tragedy if an Eastern European club were never to lift the European Cup ever again.


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Sam
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: Oxford_Che]
      #2812 - 19/03/2007 23:04

Che, welcome to the forum. Not a bad first post for someone with no interest in the game! I just wanted to highlight this from your post, because it sums up pretty well what I've been trying to put across to Subhankar for seemingly AGES...

Quote:

Reducing the amount of entries from the big leagues is not suddenly going to create an influx of Eastern European clubs into the Champions League, but it will at least give them a much better chance of progressing through to the group stages and collecting a handsome sum of money to help them rebuild. Not only that, but it will hopefully shift some of the limelight away from the big powers and towards Eastern Europe.




A really good point. If they're actually allowed to compete more often, THE STANDARD WILL RISE. The current Champs League setup is designed to prevent this happening, because it's not in the interests of the big western European clubs (a.k.a. G14). For that reason if no other, it should be changed, or at least tweaked slightly.

Oh and I can't remember who said it (richards?), but technically 'Champions League' isn't necessarily grammatically incorrect, because it COULD refer to a league of champions, which of course doesn't require an apostrophe. Although if that's the case it does it in a phenomenally confusing way. Also, the original format of the European Cup didn't limit itself to only national champions or only one representative per country (the first team to knock Real Madrid out of the EC were Barcelona) - it was simply whichever clubs the organisers (France Football magazine and UEFA) felt like inviting, to make the best tournament. More often than not that was national champions, but not SOLELY...


Sam

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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre


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subhankar_mondal
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: Sam]
      #2818 - 20/03/2007 06:25

Sam,it's not that I don't see through your ideas. True,they are noble,they are very much feasible,possible but highly improbable. The controversy is with the Big Three European nations,ie,essentially with 3 clubs,all fouth placed in their respective domestic leagues. The fact is that these three clubs are assured of generating much more interest and thrall than their East European counterparts. The UEFA Champions League isn't solely limited to Europe but is disseminated acrosss the entire world as far as audience and fans are concerned. People are more interested in the Liverpools,the Arsenals.....

Another point. You said(or someone else)that the drafting in of these less privileged clubs will invariably raise their standards but I don't see how. We have observed the biggest Belgian club featuring regularly in the Champions League but how many times have they entered the second stage? How many times have we seen the likes of Rosenborg filter through to the knockout rounds?

Someone,was it Che?,said that it's something of a disgrace that the champions of certain nations have to qualify whereas even the second placed teams of other countries qualify automatically for the Champions League proper. Well,this is moral policing and whatever people might say about morals not being that important as there are other biger issues to encounter,I firmly believe that moral codes are highly significant. But on certain occasions,you have to induct in a bit of common sense and practical sense. The champions of,say Bulgaria,Romania or Hungary,don't encounter that many of toughness whilst winning the championships but the likes of Valencias,Arsenals or Milans do regularly come up with strong force and going against that win is more difficult,I suppose.

The best Platini can do is to reduce the number of teams from the Big nations going into the UEFA Cup and increase the number from the lesser countries. The UEFA Cup is acknowledged as the second-tier European competition and we should all try and raise the standards of this particular competition,not the Champions League. Tell me,keeping your hand on your heart,do you guys really believe that eeping three of the big clubs out of the Champions League and importing three mediocre teams at best who can't even get to the latter rounds of the UEFA Cup would engender more interest? If so,God help!

--------------------
Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.extra-football.com.


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righteous1
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: Oxford_Che]
      #2821 - 20/03/2007 19:09

Quote:


The only likely contenders for the Champions League title come from England, Spain, Germany and Italy.





Che, this is not true, the 2004 final was Porto v Monaco. PSV Eindhoven have reached the sf's/qf's on a regular basis. CSKA Moscow played well in this years comp and were unlucky to lose out in a tough group. There have been plenty of upsets, Dynamo Kiev also reached the Semi's in the late 1990's.

Also Subhankar makes a good point about Belgian teams as an example of playing in the Champions League year after year but not improving, Anderlecht haven't improved at all, despite being in the group stages seemingly every year.

I agree that Eastern European champions shouldn't have to play more qualifying games than the 4th placed English/Italian/Spanish team etc, thats why the Champions League should be expanded. With more groups, there would be more places, and the quality would not drop because all the best teams would still be there, and the Eastern European teams would be able to compete on a more equal footing.

Reducing the quality of the Champions League is taking football backwards in my opinion.


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righteous1
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: RichieC]
      #2822 - 20/03/2007 19:22

Quote:

Personally, I feel all the european competitions were devalued when they allowed non champions into the European cup. To then call it the contrived 'champions league' (which technically should have an apostrophe somewhere in there) further devalues a once great competition. Champions League? Where are the champions? Liverpool were far from it when they won. Get back to what it chould be and stop pandering to the financial side of it. I agree with the direction Platini is going. The likelihood of his succeeding is sadly small.




Richie

While I agree that the name of the tournament should be changed, its only a name, and people seem to be hung up on what is a minor issue.

Also Liverpool seem to be mentioned alot by fans wishing to have a go at the Champions League. As a Liverpool fan, I feel I should offer some criticism of this short sighted, somewhat bitter view.

When Liverpool won the European Cup for the first time back in 1977, they did so, legitimately in your eyes, as Champions of England the preceeding season. To win the competition that year Liverpool had to beat the following:

Round 1:Crusaders (Ireland)
Round 2:Trabzonspor
QF: St Etienne
SF:FC Zurich
F:Borussia Moenchengladbach

How can anybody seriously think that this run was more difficult than this 2005 triumph:

Grp Stage:
Deportivo La Coruna
Monaco
Olympiakos

Round 2: Bayer Leverkusen

QF: Juventus

SF: Chelsea

Final: AC Milan

Liverpool may have only been the 4th best team in England in 2003-2004, but in the 2004-2005 Champions League, they were worthy winners of a quality competition, and had to beat better teams than in the legitimate (your rules) 1977 triumph.


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Oxford_Che
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Re: The Big Issue [Re: righteous1]
      #2824 - 20/03/2007 22:08

Monaco-Porto was a one off and is unlikely to happen again for quite some time.

True, quite a few teams from outside the 'big four' make it to the quarters and semis, but that is as far as they can go. A 'glass ceiling' if you like.

Since the beggining of the Champions League as we know it, 12 of the 15 winners have been from England, Spain, Germany or Italy, 1 from France, 1 from Holland and 1 from Portugal.


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