subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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to behnam:
Are you from India? I ask this because your nickname sounds very much Indish....I mean,behnam in Hindi(as well as in Bengali) means "without any name".
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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subhankar_mondal
member
Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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Richie, the system is that the reserve sides of the big Premiership clubs would never be promoted to the Premiership even if they do qualify to do so by virtue of their league table positions. This rule applies to Spain where the Barcelona and the Real Madrid reserves sometimes do finish in the top three but are not promoted for obvious reasons. Instead,the team bext to them in the table goes through to play top-flight football.
One disadvantage that has now entered my head pertaining to fostering top Premiership clubs' reserve teams in the lower leagues in England is that the corresponding clubs will then be leased to buy more players and this will once create the old problem of not keeping the foreign inflow of players in check. That 5+6 rule(or something of that sort) then needs to be introduced for the reserve sides.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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RichieC
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Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 534
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Fair enough, but then you could end up with the ridiculous scenario whereby the 7th and 8th placed clubs are promoted.
Sure they get to play in the premiership, but is that really any sense of achievement?
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badgerboy
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Reged: 26/03/2007
Posts: 727
Loc: Bucks, England
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Fair enough, but then you could end up with the ridiculous scenario whereby the 7th and 8th placed clubs are promoted.
Sure they get to play in the premiership, but is that really any sense of achievement?
To be fair - although I'm against Rafa's proposals I think we might be overestimating the strength of the top club's reserve sides here - and/or underestimating the teams in the Championship.
After all Real Madrid B are in the relegation zone in the Spanish second division & Barcelona B in a similar position in one of the four regional third divisions.
The big issue for me wouldn't be the potential domination of the big clubs reserve sides - I doubt this would happen. It would be the affects of their participation in the first place. With 72 clubs in the Football League, even allowing just four reserve sides into the competition (and how could you stop at four?) would presumably mean four of the current 72 being replaced. As has already been said - all these clubs have their loyal fan base & replacing them with "Rich club's Reserve XI" would just be wrong.
Maybe these things work in Spain & elsewhere because there are far fewer clubs with a long & rich history than there are in England. Plus of course the vast majority of reserve teams play at a "regional league" level. The third level in Spain involves 80 clubs in four divisions - the same level in Germany 36 clubs in 2 divisions (though that is due to become the fourth level from 2008-09). I think I'm also right in saying that many of the teams at the Spanish third level are part-time (the equivalent of the sixth level in England now over 80% of the Conference clubs are full-time professional.
Perhaps if the likes of Liverpool & Chelsea reserves were willing to follow the examples of the likes of FC United of Manchester & AFC Wimbledon - starting at the very bottom (or as near the bottom as anyone else has to) of the pyramid. Working their way up from Combined Counties Division One or North West Counties Division Two would surely give a boost to average crowds in those leagues (as FC United of Manchester have) - & if they did make the Football League after six seasons or so - at least they would've earned it.
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behnam
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Reged: 09/04/2007
Posts: 4
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Quote:
SM
to behnam:
Are you from India? I ask this because your nickname sounds very much Indish....I mean,behnam in Hindi(as well as in Bengali) means "without any name".
No. I'm from Iran. behnam is my first name, and it means "the one with a good name/reputation"
Quote:
RichieC
The big clubs would then see the reserve sides as a money spinner in their own right and buy more players just to have success with them. Who knows, we could end up with a Premiership consisting of the top 10 sides and their reserve teams...then what? A 2nd reserve side? (I know that's an extreme, but one never knows...)
Money is a very important issue here. I couldn't agree with you more on clubs potentially using the reserve sides as money spinners. That is why my recommendation would be to prevent the reserve sides from receiving any revenue from TV contracts or the such...the reserve sides shouldn't become a second business...
As far as having 10 teams in the Premiership with their 10 reserve sides, there are ways to prevent that as well. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, reserve sides would not be allowed to progress further than League One.
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RichieC
Fair enough, but then you could end up with the ridiculous scenario whereby the 7th and 8th placed clubs are promoted.
Sure they get to play in the premiership, but is that really any sense of achievement?
A possible (but in my opinion, unlikely) scenario, it hasn't happened in Spain or in Germany, so I don't see why it would happen in England. You would expect that if a reserve side is doing well enough to even be in League One, the Premiership and Championship sides would be picking the best players from the reserve sides to play in the first team. This by itself should serve to maintain the level of reserve sides at a relatively low and constant stage.
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badgerboy
Perhaps if the likes of Liverpool & Chelsea reserves were willing to follow the examples of the likes of FC United of Manchester & AFC Wimbledon - starting at the very bottom (or as near the bottom as anyone else has to) of the pyramid. Working their way up from Combined Counties Division One or North West Counties Division Two would surely give a boost to average crowds in those leagues (as FC United of Manchester have) - & if they did make the Football League after six seasons or so - at least they would've earned it.
Agreed!!!
Edited by behnam (11/04/2007 15:51)
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Dalbs
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Reged: 12/04/2007
Posts: 74
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I think Rafa Benitez has made a good point. I think putting teams comprised of the top clubs younger players into the football league is a great idea.
If you look at countries like Spain where the idea has been implemented it has worked and uncovered some real stars. Also, if you look at some lower league teams who act as feeder clubs to Premiership teams their teams have a large portion of youth players from their parent club anyway. Therefore if they aren't needed as feeder clubs they wont have to play youth players from bigger teams and may even uncover some good youngsters in their own youth system.
The main advantage of the idea is that youth players get much more chances. This will surely mean that more and more good English talent will emerge which would help the national team.
I do however think that some changes need to be made to the proposal.
Firstly, the teams that are entered into the lower leagues should be B teams rather than reserves as the reserves are needed to help players regain fitness after long injury lay offs.
Secondly, players should be registered to the B teams. This would prevent teams putting in the likes of Steven Gerrard or Arjen Robben into the B teams in one off matches to help them rise up the table.
Thirdly, First teams should not be allowed to play in the same league as their reserves. This has been implemented in Spain so B teams can not be promoted above the second division.
Although the proposal has its disadvantages I think the advantages would be well worth the problems.
Dalbs
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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It's not that all the Premeirship clubs will be able to field reserve sides in the lower reaches of the footballing pyramid. Only the top 4 or 5 can and so they should. You did a good job of mentioning that the players need to be registered. And another rule should be implemented: foreign players bought in the transfer market above a certain age(say 18 or 19) won't be allowed to play in the reserves.
What the reserves of the top clubs would get is the exposure to the routine rigors of professional football. These players would then acquire the mentality and this would enhance their development process.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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subhankar_mondal
member
Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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Quote:
Fair enough, but then you could end up with the ridiculous scenario whereby the 7th and 8th placed clubs are promoted.
Sure they get to play in the premiership, but is that really any sense of achievement?
No,that's not going to happen. It's just a theory and there is a huge gap between this theory and its practical equivalence.
Fair enough,if we do imagine such a scenario,then it's "fair enough" that the clubs who finish below the Premeirship reserves are the best after the reserves and they are being promoted. If the likes of Sunderland place themselves below the Liverpool reserves,then they are still the best of the rest and so be it:let they be promoted into the Premiership and let the Liverpool reserves stay where they are.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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righteous1
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Reged: 16/03/2007
Posts: 553
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Quote:
And what about this new issue? How many of our previous comments been published? And whose?
Sub in the new issue there are quotes from me, you, Richie C, and Richards from the first big issue thread, so it looks like they will continue to expand on publishing from this forum. Not that im in it for personal glory or anything ! 
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RichieC
member
Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 534
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Nor me  
As a lot of others here have said, that the forum is getting more prominence is great as it is attracting new people here all the time. I, like several of us, joined around WC06 and often it went for days with no new posts. Now it's getting a lot busier and more interesting.
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subhankar_mondal
member
Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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Quote:
Quote:
And what about this new issue? How many of our previous comments been published? And whose?
Sub in the new issue there are quotes from me, you, Richie C, and Richards from the first big issue thread, so it looks like they will continue to expand on publishing from this forum. Not that im in it for personal glory or anything !
What are the comments mate? I am so so happy.....I am published in World Soccer. Sad that I don't have a copy and that most of the people here haven't heard about this magazines.
Please be generous enough to post the comments here,if you will. And also kindly explicate the format in which the commenst were published. Was it said anywhere that I am from India? If so,then oh God,people outside my country will know that in India,football is alive.
What about Sam? Weren't any of his commments published?
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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big_gaz
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Reged: 25/03/2007
Posts: 29
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If all UCL entrants have to name at least 8 home grown players in their 25-man squads from the 2008-9 season, this is going to be an important factor in the debate. These 8 players need to be capable of slotting into the first team at the highest level - at the very least they need to have had a decent run of 1st team football or the equivalent. Benitez certainly doesn't have 8 homegrown players who could do this at the moment. Having a B team playing in a full competitive league must look attractive in these circumstances, as a more competitive platform for young players than an 18-game Reserves competition.
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RichieC
member
Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 534
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Sub, the comments printed are all in the thread you started in the Magazine section on the forum (WorldSoccer replied)
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Oxford_Che
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Reged: 19/03/2007
Posts: 4
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Alot of people who haven't experienced the lower leagues in England probably can't understand the passion and loyalty of the fans who follow teams. To allow the second string of top teams to compete against these sides would be insulting the intelligence of these fans.
If you look at the lower leagues in Italy, Spain etc you will see attendances barely making three figures, whereas, for example, Oxford United attract 6-7,000 people regularly in the fifth level of English footbal.
Sorry Rafa, but it's just not going to work
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badgerboy
member
Reged: 26/03/2007
Posts: 727
Loc: Bucks, England
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Quote:
If all UCL entrants have to name at least 8 home grown players in their 25-man squads from the 2008-9 season, this is going to be an important factor in the debate. These 8 players need to be capable of slotting into the first team at the highest level - at the very least they need to have had a decent run of 1st team football or the equivalent. Benitez certainly doesn't have 8 homegrown players who could do this at the moment.
Quoting myself from some info. I put on another forum earlier this season referring to the current season's Cl squads:
"Liverpool's 30 man squad has 5 "B"-listers - Stephen Darby, Adam Hammill, Daniel Guthrie, Lee Peltier & Craig Lindfield. Their 25 man
"A"-list has 4 CT players - Jamie Carragher, Stephen Warnock, Steven Gerrard & Robbie Fowler and 7 AT players - David Martin, Steve Finnan, Harry Kewell, Jermaine Pennant, Paul Anderson, Peter Crouch & Craig Bellamy. Anderson is a potential CT player of the future - as is Miki Roque.
The 7 potential CT players of the future are not well-known to me. Recent progress of Academy players into the first-team has not appeared spectacular. A Liverpool fan might have more insight?"
In the above CT = club-trained & AT = association trained.
The current rule is 2 CT + 2 more AT players. It will eventually be 4 + 4.
Perhaps the most important thing about the rule that it doesn't (and can't due to EU law) refer to the nationality of players. Instead of improving the situation in fact it encourages the big clubs to go out & buy players from smaller clubs - home & abroad - at a younger age. That way -if they fulfil their promise then they become "club-trained" players of the future.
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Sam
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Reged: 12/07/2006
Posts: 1063
Loc: North Somerset (returning to M...
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Quite. As I mentioned (I think on here somewhere) when the idea of such a quote was mentioned in the latter part of last year - if those regulations came in next season, Manchester United could list Cristiano Ronaldo as a 'homegrown' player, when he fairly manifestly isn't (albeit he wouldn't be at his current level had he stayed at Sporting).
As for the issue at the centre of this thread... because I'm aware I've not said anything on it, though I have been paying attention: I'm not sure how it could be introduced to the English league system right now in any case. Clearly if it happened, the reserves would have to start at the bottom of the pyramid and work their way up - you can't just shoehorn them into League One or the Championship straight away, and chuck other teams out to suit. Also, the idea that only the 'Big Four', or the top 10 in the Prem, or whoever, should be allowed to do this is ridiculous. The current 'Big Four' have only been FOUR since Abramovich came along. These things change, so would the clubs allowed to field reserve sides in the League change season by season as well?
It also devalues the league pyramid as a whole, to allow one club to field two teams in the same competition (even if it is in different divisions of the same competition). Spaniards have no problem with it but as someone else mentions above, look at lower league attendances in Spain compared with here. Do Castilla (as Real Madrid's reserve side call themselves) or Barcelona B actually have any fans OF THEIR OWN? Surely not.
If the big clubs want to give their reserve sides more competitive action, the answer is simple - treat the reserve leagues more seriously. Rafa Benitez is manager of a club whose reserves are struggling badly enough in the league they already play in, so what on earth does he think they'd do if they were playing in the Championship?
In Argentina, if you pay attention to my Voice of Football column or my website, you'll be aware that the top divison is known as the Primera A. The assumption foreigners always make is that 'Primera' refers to the division. It doesn't. The 'A' is the division - 'Primera' means it's the competition for the FIRST TEAM SQUADS of the teams involved. So there's a 'Segunda A' as well, not that it has any consequence to the wider public. And a 'Tercera A' and B and C and so on. And this continues right down to under-15s leagues for the youth sides of professional clubs. And if you visit Argentina and spend an afternoon flicking through the TV channels, you'll find matches from all of these divisions on TV. OK, nobody's watching. But the clubs take the reserve (and lower) competitions seriously. Because they know it's a good way of bringing through players.
A question: which country is currently producing the more technically able footballers?
It's frightening to say this where the essential topic is to do with organisation, but perhaps we should follow a South American model...
Sam
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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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subhankar_mondal
member
Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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I see you side of the story Sam, and I do admit that your points are better than most others here. But Sam,I said that clubs who can field reserves in the lower divisions should do so. If Man U,Chelsea or Liverpool can play their reserves in the lower leagues and have the financial capacity to do so,then they should be allowed. Of course,you can't allow a Liverpool B side to encroach into the Championship from the very start,but let these players start playing from the very lowest tier of the footballing pyramid. As you suggest,the South American model is an ideal one,but is it possible to induct the same into English football? For that, a lot of ratifications are needed which at the moment won't be made.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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RichieC
member
Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 534
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But surely making them start from the bottom would then negate what Rafa was supposedly trying to achieve. If the reserves are subsequently not good enough to escape the lower divisions then they are not getting to play against 'good' teams to start with and would probably be better off staying in their native reserve league or being loaned to Championship clubs.
I agree with Sam here. I think the solution Rafa seeks (that of raising the standard of his reserves) would be better served by clubs taking the reserve league more seriously.
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subhankar_mondal
member
Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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Quote:
But surely making them start from the bottom would then negate what Rafa was supposedly trying to achieve. If the reserves are subsequently not good enough to escape the lower divisions then they are not getting to play against 'good' teams to start with
Then that would mean that the reserve players,perhaps sparing a few, are not good enough to make the top professional league and would expose the poor grassroot levels of the level. In a way,that would then be a blessing in disguise as the men in suits would know that all's not well in the lower levels of the game.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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Rogorn
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Reged: 24/03/2007
Posts: 314
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First of all, I'd like to congratulate World Soccer for the choice of the people used to illustrate the topic. Rafa Benítez has worked in the other system, very successfully, and knows how it can work. On the other hand, Barry Fry defends his corner well, although I could do with the 'hasn't got a clue' bit. Surely he himself hasn't got a clue about a couple of things either (including one half of the topic at hand). Benítez doesn't present his opinions like that, for example.
Anyway, I'd like to draw your attention to the way they present the topic, which clearly illustrates the difference in concept. I think they have two different things in mind. Whereas Benítez speaks about young players getting experience (that's what Spain's 'filiales' are for), Fry talks about 'reserves'. The very names given to those teams reveal how different the idea is.
The B teams in Spain have an age limit. Once a player has grown out of it, he can't stay in a filial, a B team, any more. This also means that you cannot use the filial to play your players numbers 17-23 in your squad, or players coming back from injuries. Frankly, many players in Spain would take it as an insult. Also, you can't sign star players for the B team (unless they're younger than the age limit, Samuel Eto'o started like this at Real Madrid) or old glories. Also, once a filial player has played a number of games for the 'primer equipo' he can't go back down. He has to be made a part of the parent squad or released.
Compare all this to the 'reserve team' version in England and you can see how different they are. Spanish filiales are youth teams only, with lots of limits and regulations which actually hamper them in the competition. English reserves are the actual B teams, which you can make as big as you want, without restrictions. It wouldn't be money well spent probably, but nothing stops Roman et al from buying 46 top players and stick half in the reserve team games.
Now, bearing this in mind, there's a couple of curious points. Number one is that Benítez, one of the most successful 'entrenadores del filial' there has been, can trumpet this system all he wants, but it doesn't guarantee that the product will be better. Look at the A teams of Real Madrid and Barcelona, for example, and see how many home-grown players they have. The same, or with minimal differences, as other behemoths of the European game, like Manchester United, Bayern or Milan. Sometimes they get a good batch of players coming up together (the famous Quinta del Buitre at Real Madrid in the 80s), but Man U did that too with Fergie's Fledglings using a different system. So none is better. At the end of they day the big clubs want 23 top players, and they'll do anything they need to get them - including, or rather starting with, letting go of their local boys which aren't good enough.
The other curious thing is that while the Spanish system is advocated for England, in Spain there are advocates for changing the system to the English one: putting the B teams in their own league so that they can all play guys their age, so that competition is not distorted by difference of aims and of rules for filiales, and so that other teams for other cities can take their places and have football teams higher up.
At the end of the day, custom and habit might be the decider in this. England has never had this system and Spain has always had it, so things will continue as they are. No harm in the debate, though. As long as we are careful with saying who 'has got a clue' about what.
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