TheGer
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Reged: 12/04/2007
Posts: 9
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Although most people seem to be against this idea of introducing Man Utd B and Chelsea B etc. If Chelsea reserves were to join the football league they would end up at the top of the championship.
It all stems from the money that the premiership are recieving and the gap between the top flite and football league is going to widen. All teams in the football league are important and Benitez is degrading football.
Imagine sky sports werent there, this discussion wouldnt even be happening because football league clubs would be far closer to the premierships elite.
Rafa has a point, but if he is complaing he should just cut back his squad and play his youngsters.
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Rogorn
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Reged: 24/03/2007
Posts: 321
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Quote:
In Argentina (...) 'A' is the division - 'Primera' means it's the competition for the FIRST TEAM SQUADS of the teams involved. So there's a 'Segunda A' as well, not that it has any consequence to the wider public. And a 'Tercera A' and B and C and so on. And this continues right down to under-15s leagues for the youth sides of professional clubs. And if you visit Argentina and spend an afternoon flicking through the TV channels, you'll find matches from all of these divisions on TV. OK, nobody's watching. But the clubs take the reserve (and lower) competitions seriously. Because they know it's a good way of bringing through players. A question: which country is currently producing the more technically able footballers?
It's frightening to say this where the essential topic is to do with organisation, but perhaps we should follow a South American model...
This is very interesting. But notice something: Argentinian clubs lose their best players very early (and earlier each time), which fosters a kind of 'battlefield promotion' turnover of players. A club losing their three, four, best players every six months and having hardly any money to sign more, are going to have to promote from within all the time. In European clubs sometimes the problem with young players breaking into first teams is simply that the incumbent is just too good to be dislodged from the team. How many young players is Steven Gerrard going to block from playing for Liverpool just because he's so good that you don't need anyone else? Answer: at least one a year for as long as he's in the starting XI.
That doesn't happen in Argentina. Quite the opposite, in fact. In the player ahead of you in the pecking order plays really well, your own chances of taking his place in a few months' time increase with each good performance, as he'll be snapped up soon by a foreign team. In Europe good performances would mean an extended contract for him and a transfer request from you.
So in this case the lack of opportunities comes from inside the club, not from the lack of quality of the youngsters. Many discarded players go on to make good careers elsewhere and some even return to a top club after a few years.
The market has always regulated itself. At the end of the day, if you ask the top clubs if they want them good or they want them local, they'll say that both would be best, but that they'd rather have them good. And that's what they do all the time. The best man for the best post, isn't that what every society advocates for all its jobs?
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Sam
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Reged: 12/07/2006
Posts: 1063
Loc: North Somerset (returning to M...
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Um, the players who move to big European clubs from Argentina are the best 10 or 15 in the league at the most, not the best half-dozen or so from each team. Sure, the 'turnover' is a lot faster there, but it's not THAT much faster. You've got a point, but it doesn't render the whole idea of an Argentina-like reserve system useless in England...
Sam
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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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Ryan_Gay
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Reged: 17/04/2007
Posts: 2
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I am totally against the idea of introducing top flight 'b' teams to the league structure, I think it would totally de-value the current system. I follow league two football, I'm a Bristol Rovers Fan and what keeps smaller teams such as mine going is the terrific fan base that come to support their side every week, how many people are going to go and watch Chelsea's B side play week in week out? Following football is a way of life for many supporters and i think it will be extremely disrespectful if all of a sudden there sides had to play top flight reserve sides week in week out. Also there loan system in place is already perfectly accepteable. Top flight sides can send players on loan to gain valuable experience and at the same time smaller clubs are benfitting from such an allowance.
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Rogorn
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Reged: 24/03/2007
Posts: 321
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Quote:
Um, the players who move to big European clubs from Argentina are the best 10 or 15 in the league at the most, not the best half-dozen or so from each team. Sure, the 'turnover' is a lot faster there, but it's not THAT much faster. You've got a point, but it doesn't render the whole idea of an Argentina-like reserve system useless in England.
You have the pulse on the country, so I'll give you some homework to do, hehe. It might even be useful for your site.
Check the transfers for the past four or six windows, and see who's left. Check also which deserving players didn´t get a transfer, if any. And also whether lesser teams lost players not to European clubs but to top Argentinian teams like River or Boca. Maybe say Quilmes lost a couple to Europe (many go to less glamorous destinations from clubs really far down the league table, even second division Argentinian clubs sell players abroad) and another couple to one of these two. I'd be grateful if you could find the time to do it.
And also to hear how the B-team system works in other countries from which we have posters, and what things are different. India, Denmark, Germany? In Germany they can enter the Cup, I believe, and Werder B can beat Bayern "A", for example. In Spain they used to be allowed in (Castilla even got to play in the Cup Winners' Cup), but not any more.
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Sam
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Reged: 12/07/2006
Posts: 1063
Loc: North Somerset (returning to M...
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I'm not sure when I'll have the time (no internet at work, etc. and so forth), but I'll definitely look into it if you keep reminding me, it's an interesting idea. Of course, some less fashionable clubs do sell straight to Europe - Liverpool's recent policy of recruiting Argentines who seem to be totally unheard of in their home towns being a good example - but generally European scouts are lazy enough to let River and Boca cream the top players off, and have them for a year or two before they go on to Europe.
That being said, arguably Argentina's best 'academy', both historically and currently (Newell's perhaps run them close) is that of River - so that's a fair few talented kids who've skipped the bottom hurdle right away and gone in at the top (of the Argentinian pile of clubs at least)...
I didn't know about Castilla playing the CWC. That is interesting.
Sam
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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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Rogorn
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Reged: 24/03/2007
Posts: 321
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I didn't know about Castilla playing the CWC. That is interesting.
It's quite a famous story. Castilla got to the final of Spain's Cup competition, the Copa del Rey, in 1980, where they played... Real Madrid. They were hammered 6-1 (surprise, surprise), but as Madrid did the double, Castilla played in the CWC as lucky losers. Mind you, to reach that final they had eliminated FOUR top division clubs in home-and-away rounds, including the two who finished second and third that year in the league. Then, in the CWC, they only played one round, against none other than West Ham. Castilla won at home 3-1 then lost in London 5-1.
So, this is 'officially' the most successful B team ever. But if someone is afraid that something like that could happen again, we only have to remember that in all these years it has happened only once. Besides, I suppose that accepting reserve teams into the league system with no restrictions whatsoever, like those imposed on Spanish clubs, is a non-starter as an option. Helping youngsters compete is one thing. Having full-strength second teams is a very different concept, and I think it should be avoided.
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2220
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Great story that. I am indebeted you for the little piece of knowledge.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2220
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When youngsters play youngsters,you can only measure players against those of the same age and though,millions induct themselves into football academies,only the chosen few make it big. So when you have a bunch a really talented young kids playing a group of mediocre at best or slightly average kids,you don't actually improve the standards of the first bunch,except perhaps pouring a deluge of confidence on them,confidence that often tend to knock on the doors of complacency. Sam,I am certain that someone sensible like you realises the significant the importance of promoting and developing the grassroots level in England,as the country isn't producing a volley of raw diamonds. I am not saying that playing reserves against professional sides in the lower tier of the footballing pyramid would definitely work,nut there's no guarantee that it won't. So,what not try it out?
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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Dalbs
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Reged: 12/04/2007
Posts: 74
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Actually in Spain a B team and their Parent team can not play in the same league so if the Castilla won the second division they wouldn't go into the first division. Also, if Real Madrid somehow got relegated even if Castilla won the second division both teams would be relegated down a division.
Thanks for that interesting fact though. And is that really true.
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Sam
member
Reged: 12/07/2006
Posts: 1063
Loc: North Somerset (returning to M...
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Rogorn - now you expand on it I have a feeling Phil Ball may mention it in passing in his excellent book Morbo. But if he does I'd totally forgotten about it, so thanks again.
Sub: Quote:
I am not saying that playing reserves against professional sides in the lower tier of the footballing pyramid would definitely work,nut there's no guarantee that it won't. So,what not try it out?
Because it would tear up a huge part of our footballing heritage, be bloody difficult to reverse, and there's no real reason to suppose it would work any more effectively than our current system - we're all discussing the ins and outs in contrast to Spain's system, but it's not as if their national side is significantly more successful, is it?
I'll say again: before Benítez starts saying the reserve leagues don't provide his kids with a challenge, he should look at whereabouts those kids are currently sitting in said reserve league. Seems to me they're finding it hard enough already!
Sam
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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2220
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Quote:
we're all discussing the ins and outs in contrast to Spain's system, but it's not as if their national side is significantly more successful, is it?
Sam
But certainly Spain appear to be producing more and more truly quality youngsters and technically gifted players,players who are superior when taken individually against their England counterparts.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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RichieC
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Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 557
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Football is a team game. Spain have always produced talented, gifted youngsters, as has brazil, yet Spain have always disappointed in major tournaments and Brazil only started winning world cups again when they started playing as a team and being more defensive, rather than letting a bunch of individuals do what they want. Yes you need talent, but there's little point of having a bunch of superstars if they can't gel as a coherent unit.
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badgerboy
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Reged: 26/03/2007
Posts: 727
Loc: Bucks, England
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Quote:
So, this is 'officially' the most successful B team ever. But if someone is afraid that something like that could happen again, we only have to remember that in all these years it has happened only once.
Funnily enough this year both Salzburg & Salzburg Amateurs reached the Austrian Cup semi-finals - but less funnily (for Salzburg fans anyway) they both lost.
And - more obscurely - Ruzomberok's "B" team are in the Slovakian Cup Semi-Finals.
I'm not quite sure what UEFA's rule is on such things these days. Presumably they don't allow two of the same team into the same competition (ownership rules) but one in the CL & one in the UEFA Cup? Or if the "B" team qualifies for Europe can the first team take their place?
There's another "situation" to keep an eye on in Turkey. Two teams from the city of Kayseri - but unlike most "normal" local rivals these ones seem to "love" each other. They already swapped identities once (when the supposedly secondary club Erciyesspor got promoted to the Turkish Superliga). Now - although the "new" Erciyesspor are languishing in the relegation zone while Kayserispor are vieing for a European spot through the league the secondary team are also Cup semi-finalists - and won the first leg against Trabzonspor 1-0 away. If they get to the final AND stay up then I suspect some more identity-switching (to allow the "main" club to play in Europe) isn't out of the question...
UEFA article on the friendship between the two teams.
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adriansfc
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Reged: 22/04/2007
Posts: 31
Loc: London/Southampton
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Again we see Benitez trying to bring in ideas from Spain, and this one is about as clever as signing Antonio Nunez.
If he feels the reserve league isn't competitive enough, loan out the players.
The strength of the Football League, and it's support is far beyond that of other European nations. Many fans enjoy these leagues, following them as much, if not more than Premiership fans. This cannot be allowed to change. Big clubs are running football enough, making it almost impossible to compete. Destroying the lower leagues would be a step too far. Who on earth want to support Liverpool Reserves if Liverpool are playing at the same time? There'd be no atmosphere, it would just turn very competitive, well supported leagues into a joke.
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GillsMan
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Reged: 23/04/2007
Posts: 2
Loc: London, UK
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Being a West Ham and Gillingham fan, perhaps I can see both sides of the argument (although it's debatable as to whether or not West Ham could be considered to be a big club right now). Overall, I'm not overly opposed to this, I think that giving youth players the chance to play in a more competitive league for their club week in week out would be a good idea. Although, the problem with this would be smaller clubs having less opportunity to loan in young talent and thereby perhaps losing out on potential success.
I guess I'm squarely on the fence with this.
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Brian_Elliott
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Reged: 17/06/2006
Posts: 32
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My apologies, but I haven't yet read all of the replies here. But of course, I have read the opinions of Benitez and Fry in this month's issue.
Whilst I have tremendous respect for Benitez as a manager, I can't help but think that he holds his opinion only because it suits him. Liverpool do not particularly want to send players on loan, because that takes them out of Liverpool's training methods, and away from Benitez's (or his assistant's) tactical vision. This impedes their progression in becoming the player that he wants them to be. Note that I am not saying that going on loan to lower-level club will stop that player developing into a good player overall.
In this instance, Fry is correct, and if Liverpool want their players to gain more experience from playing, they should send them out on loan to lower-level clubs. As Fry correctly pointed out (and I have seen this first-hand in the Irish Premier League), people love these clubs as dearly as any investor-backed Premiership club. I'm sure that there are some lower-level clubs that would be delighted to take five or six Liverpool youth players into their squad, but it would be somewhat insulting for those same clubs to play against Premiership reserve teams every other week.
The Championship and League One etc have proved again and again to be tremendously exciting leagues for their fans. Adding reserve teams of the richest clubs to that, would dilute much of that excitement.
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Brian Elliott is a freelance journalist who has written for the Associated Press, the Canadian Press, and Sport Illustrated on the subjects of soccer and Mixed Martial Arts.
You can have have your say about goings-on in world soccer by visiting
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richards
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Reged: 12/06/2006
Posts: 88
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Excellent post Brian and a very astute point about coaches like Benitez wanting to ensure players adhere to their club's training regimes.
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stephen_woodside
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Reged: 02/05/2007
Posts: 1883
Loc: Huyton, Merseyside
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Certainly not.Why should Premier League Reserve clubs play in the football league? Statiscally,each football league division is tighter than the premiership which is now monotonous,where you generally get Chelsea, Manchester United,Arsenal and Liverpool vying for the top four positions.Rafa Benitez thoughts are completely absurd and his lack of passion for the english game is clearly lacking,maybe thats why it is clearly evident that Benitez is having so much success in European competitions,but his side are falling short in their own domestic league.I find it strange how he says things become impossible if you dont give young players the chance to play yet he has signed countless young players throughout the continent.Why cant Liverpool simply loan out young players for experience because clearly he is not going to play them for the first team.Obviously Liverpool's youth policy is not working,it has not been working for some time now.Michael Owen,Robbie Fowler,Steve McManaman,Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher have all come through the youth system and have all had good careers.Answers on a postcard as to name a successful player who has come through the ranks in more recent times.Simply give youth a chance and we can then improve the standard on the international scene.
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Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
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Rogorn
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Reged: 24/03/2007
Posts: 321
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Quote:
Rafa Benitez thoughts are completely absurd and his lack of passion for the english game is clearly lacking,maybe thats why it is clearly evident that Benitez is having so much success in European competitions,but his side are falling short in their own domestic league.
It mustn't be so 'absurd' when the system is used in other countries, and he has first hand experience of it. Which everyone else answering him haven't.
Benítez lacks passion for the English game? Absolutely not. For starters, he went to manage there. Then, he's presiding over a period of continued success in which Liverpool are punching their weight in the Premiership (they are way behind Chelsea and Manchester United, and deservedly so - and they were there before he came) and way above it in the Champions League, with domestic cup finals in between. Just having a couple of ideas from previous experiences abroad doesn't mean he 'lacks passion'. And if he does because his results aren't good enough, what about the others finishing below him in the Premiership?
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