subhankar_mondal
member
Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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What Rafael Bentez needs at Liverpool is funds which he is promised($40 million) next season. Frankly speaking,with the team that Liverpool has at the moment,it's not probable to win the Premiership,given that Chelsea have such a large squad with almost like-for-like players in each department. But Rafa has shown what he is capable of--- bringing the Champions League trophy in his first season in charge of the Merseyside club(granted that AC Milan and Steven Gerrard and that Dudek antic on the goalline helped his cause a lot) and then the FA Cup(again with SOME help from Gerrard) and now another Champions League final. You cannot criticize someone with that kind of a track record,never. And I am glad that there's someone here on this forum who thinks alike.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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badgerboy
member
Reged: 26/03/2007
Posts: 727
Loc: Bucks, England
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Quote:
You cannot criticize someone with that kind of a track record,never. And I am glad that there's someone here on this forum who thinks alike.
I find your "logic" very strange sometimes Sub. I'd agree that - whatever Liverpool's domestic failings - it's difficult to criticise Benitez's "track-record" as a manager given he's now reached two CL finals.
But I'm not really sure what that has to do with his opinions on all things football. I would dare to suggest that Rafa's been a bit too busy since he arrived in England to spend too much time watching Championship football, & saying - it works in Spain (a fact I'm not sure everyone agrees with anyway) so it ought to work in England - doesn't really cut it.
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stephen_woodside
member
Reged: 02/05/2007
Posts: 1880
Loc: Huyton, Merseyside
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Lets not cut to the chase here.Firstly Rafa has had plenty of money to spend since his arrival to Liverpool,ok not in the Chelsea bracket but how long have we got to listen to reds fans mentioning what lack of money they have.Lack of money surely cant be an excuse as the reds have had the upper hand over Chelsea of late.
Why is it also strange that Liverpool fans have bemoaned the fact that Chelsea have been "buying te league" but stangely enough,i personally have heard no reds fans complaining about George Gilette and Tom Hicks millions being poured into the clubs coffers.
About Benitez' lack of passion in the english game.I still do not believe he has enough of it.Take saturdays game for instance at Fratton Park.He was totally emotionless,fair enough,the season is almost up but the reds can still drop money by being overtaken by Arsenal.The money they would lose is just a dip in the ocean for them now however whereas it means a hell of a lot more to other clubs to gain extra revenue.
So lack of money should not be made the sole excuse for Liverpool's failure in the Premiership,after all, how much did Gerrard Houllier spend during his spell.If you look just on their transfers in over the last five seasons,the club must have spent £20 million and yet the club who have won 18 League Titles have failed to win it for 16 years.That is simply not good enough for a club of Liuverpool's stature.
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Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
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badgerboy
member
Reged: 26/03/2007
Posts: 727
Loc: Bucks, England
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Ok. Well if goldenvision is criticising Benitez's abilities as a manager - rather than his opinions on the wider English game - I do disagree with him.
But then he is an Evertonian so I wouldn't really expect anything less. 
To my mind Liverpool (& Arsenal to some extent) are very similar now to Chelsea pre-Abramovich. A match for any team in Europe on their day but apparently not always "up for it" on a wet Wednesday in Wigan. For me this has to have a lot to do with the very "European" nature of the squads - players not always as comfortable (or at least taking longer to become accustomed to) dealing with the physical side of the general English game.
Which I guess makes sense if you go back to Benitez's original wish. The main thing his young players lack - especially young players swept up from leagues around Europe - is experience of the physical side of the English game - & the best place to get that would certainly be down in the Football League...
But then it's obvious that Benitez's wishes should be a good idea for Liverpool Football Club. Unfortunately, that doesn't make them a good idea for English football in general.
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stephen_woodside
member
Reged: 02/05/2007
Posts: 1880
Loc: Huyton, Merseyside
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I strongly refute your comments about your suggestion that i must be biased for me commenting on Liverpool Football Club because it expected of me as i am an Evertonian.
Yes,it is true that i dont hold much affection for the red half of the city,that however does not give me any less right to express my opinions on any football club i wish to do so,without people assuming their is a tinge of biased in my comments.I criticise my club more than critise any other.
I am simply getting tired of complaints made from the likes of Mourinho (always),Wenger (on occasions),Ferguson (regulraly) and Benitez (occasionally).Ferguson only after they where unceremoniously dumped out of the CL,complained about his side have not much protection in the build up to the game at the San Siro (WHAT).Mourinho constantly avoids punishment for his crass comments then Benitez says he wont get involved in the war of words with the Chelsea boss but passes a comment prior to the game on tuesday at Anfield,saying Chelsea are the special one.When he was asked what he meant by his comments,Benitez replied ask them (Chelsea).How contradictory.
My views are strong whether people agree with me or not.I have a huge passion for the game but clubs outside the top four are being strangled out of the game gradually and that includes each and every club in the lower divisions
I would simply like the top four teams managers and fans to stop complaining and think themselves lucky to be in positions they find themselves in.
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Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
Edited by goldenvision (04/05/2007 14:29)
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RichieC
member
Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 534
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Quote:
I would simply like the top four teams managers and fans to stop complaining and think themselves lucky to be in positions they find themselves in.
Hear Hear!!!!
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Rogorn
member
Reged: 24/03/2007
Posts: 314
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About Benitez' lack of passion in the english game.I still do not believe he has enough of it.Take saturdays game for instance at Fratton Park.He was totally emotionless.
So the guy is a comparatively quiet bloke. Is touchline demeanour the ultimate proof of passion for the game? Then Benítez doesn't have any passion at all, for any game, anywhere, in any competition, as he's always been like that. And on that criterion, who would be the most passionate manager in England?  Where's his team in the league? And how much does one thing have to do with the other?
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stephen_woodside
member
Reged: 02/05/2007
Posts: 1880
Loc: Huyton, Merseyside
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benitez may seem to have quiet nature,very much like Sven Goran Eriksson during his spell as England coach yet he was criticised for his apparent lack of emotions and quite rightly so.
Over the last six or seven seasons in England,we have had Manchester United dis-respecting the FA Cup,prefering to play in the World Club Championships instead,where they got egg on their faces after under achieving,aah aah.The FA Cup is the greatest cup competition in the world,and for the tournament to be discarded in any shape or form is an unforgiveable gesture.
The same can be said for the League Cup,and while i am on this subject,why did Rafael Benitez play the youth players all the way up to the semi final two years back,but ultimately dropped them for the final despite the kids grafting to get them there.That to me indicates his lack of respect for the tournament in the early rounds and his clear lack of loyalty towards the younger players.
Many of the younger players who done so well have since moved on and will never be remembered for what they achieved.There is a mamagers gratitude for you!!!!
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Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
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Rogorn
member
Reged: 24/03/2007
Posts: 314
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Quote:
benitez may seem to have quiet nature,very much like Sven Goran Eriksson during his spell as England coach yet he was criticised for his apparent lack of emotions and quite rightly so.
I rather think quite unfairly so. But well...
Quote:
why did Rafael Benitez play the youth players all the way up to the semi final two years back,but ultimately dropped them for the final despite the kids grafting to get them there.That to me indicates his lack of respect for the tournament in the early rounds and his clear lack of loyalty towards the younger players. Many of the younger players who done so well have since moved on and will never be remembered for what they achieved.There is a mamagers gratitude for you!!!!
It might be also because he wants to get the right mixture to deal with that horrid competition that is the League Cup: do enough to progress far without derailing the rest of a busy season and then if it goes well try to actually win it, not give it away to Chelsea, like Arsenal did this year. The Arsenal youngsters did quite well, but Arsene had a good ready-made excuse for a defeat.
But I like your 'mamager' bit.  A cross between a nurturing mom and a mentoring manager.
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Rogorn
member
Reged: 24/03/2007
Posts: 314
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And now:
"Former Liverpool Academy coach Steve Heighway has labelled Rafa Benitez 'crazy' for the Spaniard's decision to take charge of the club's youth policy. Heighway was speaking in the wake of Liverpool's FA Youth Cup triumph over Manchester United. The former Anfield winger left his post at the club last week after 19 years in charge of the Academy, but he believes his departure will hinder the chances of Liverpool nurturing young talent.
"Rafa is a terrific manager, but I think I'm the best coach of 17 and 18-year-old players in this club," he said. "But I no longer get the chance to do that. It's crazy, mad and it's to the detriment of the young players here. If they are not working with the best coach of young players, then what is this football club doing? It's not an ego thing, but one thing I am absolutely sure about is that the best thing for the players is to be with me. My influence is being taken away too soon over the best players and I'm not convinced that what they are going to do is better for them. I would urge any football club to make sure the Academy is not one of the areas the manager controls." "
http://www.worldsoccer.com/news/Heighway_brands_Benitez_crazy_news_118646.html
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stephen_woodside
member
Reged: 02/05/2007
Posts: 1880
Loc: Huyton, Merseyside
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This latest development over Liverpool's youth academy cements and strengthens my own personal opinions that something has been drastically going wrong under Benitez' reign (also when Houllier was at the helm).Either Rafael himself has been caught up in his own little world,following the hype behind his managerial skills and the constant rumours linking him with Real Madrid (for which i do not believe for a minute has any individual could only dream of playing or managing their own boyhood club) or he simply believes there are fundemental problems at the club at youth level despite the young reds lifting the youth cup recently and indeed has i stated in an earlier post,getting the reds into the Carling Cup Final two years ago.
Heighway as been responsible for bringing the likes of Robbie Fowler (the most natural finisher the club has had since Ian Rush),Michael Owen (not far behind Fowler),Steve McMananaman,Jamie Carragher (amongst the better centre halfs this country has) and the clubs most valuable player in Steven Gerrard (best player in his position arguably in the world not just in Europe)although he is priceless at the club.
Only Benitez knows what he is playing at but he will be caught with his tail between his legs if he believes he can take over at youth level also.
Or does Heighway's departure also prove me correct,on the basis on another aspect i have recently brought up that the youth system has not been working for somtime now?
Make your own minds up those who wish to disagree with my comments,but i know something is amiss in the club and througout its own local fan base.
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Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
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subhankar_mondal
member
Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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Quote:
I find your "logic" very strange sometimes Sub. I'd agree that - whatever Liverpool's domestic failings - it's difficult to criticise Benitez's "track-record" as a manager given he's now reached two CL finals.
But I'm not really sure what that has to do with his opinions on all things football. I would dare to suggest that Rafa's been a bit too busy since he arrived in England to spend too much time watching Championship football, & saying - it works in Spain (a fact I'm not sure everyone agrees with anyway) so it ought to work in England - doesn't really cut it.
No mate,you are tending to view my post from the wrong angle. I was in reality making this post in the light of an undue criticism of Rafa. He lacks passion? How come he is still at Liverpool? He could have shipped off to the Bernabeu where the pay would have higher than it is at Liverpool. Rafa's track record demands respect and to dismiss Rafa's ideas on youth policy as absurd is itself an absurd thought. This is the same man who has managed Real Madrid's youth team and the castilla remember. Of course,Rafa is not always right(no one except a fool is always right,so goes the quote) but his words and statements do have some sense in them and we need to acknowledge that.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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righteous1
member
Reged: 16/03/2007
Posts: 553
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Goldenvision, you are looking for holes at Liverpool that are simply not there. I'm not surprised, you are desperate for Everton to finish above them for once, its perfectly understandable.
David Moyes is the king of moaning managers, 'Andy Johnson is not a diver mew mew' despite the evidence being obviously to the contrary. Every time Everton don't win, its is someone else's fault with Moyes.
Perhaps if you spent more time supporting Everton, and less time hating Liverpool, you wouldn't be so angry all the time and come up with your bizarre opinions about managers 'lacking passion' one of the key myths of the English game, that a manager has to have 'passion', ie, shout at his players and jump up and down when they score, to be succesful.
A certain Roy Keane, a player of immense passion and will to win, appears to act identical to Rafa on the touch line, cool, calm and collected, and also successful. Passion alone achieves nothing, you need to have a brain.
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subhankar_mondal
member
Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 2003
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Stretching the topic of passion,I would like to point out that we tend to generalise and define what's passion and what's not. Managers exhibiting their antics are far too regularly captured on TV cameras(though I do enjoy and relish it) but this doesn't translate into the simple notion that these managers are more passionate than those who prefer to maintain their cool during football matches. It depends on the individuals and their individual characters;sometimes we need to pull ourselves out of the conventional style of looking from a grooup's point of view and observe from a more individualistic angle.
Same for the players. PLayers who run tirelessly throughout the pitch for the entire 90 minutes are considered more passionate than those who play with pruned intelligence. This idea has to be changed. The only difference is that plyers like Gerrard and Gattuso and Roy Keane reveal their passion whereas others such as Alonso,Xavi do not.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.goal.com.
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righteous1
member
Reged: 16/03/2007
Posts: 553
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Quite right Sub, well said. To claim someone lacks passion, just because it is not easily visible to us as outsiders whose only contact with said individual is what we see and hear on television or at matches,is ridiculous.
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stephen_woodside
member
Reged: 02/05/2007
Posts: 1880
Loc: Huyton, Merseyside
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Quote:
Goldenvision, you are looking for holes at Liverpool that are simply not there. I'm not surprised, you are desperate for Everton to finish above them for once, its perfectly understandable.
David Moyes is the king of moaning managers, 'Andy Johnson is not a diver mew mew' despite the evidence being obviously to the contrary. Every time Everton don't win, its is someone else's fault with Moyes. Quote:
Unsurprisingly Righteous1 i have to disagree with you on all aspects of your comments.Firstly hate is a strong word,i do not hate Liverpool but merely dislike them and the feelings are mutual throughout the red half of the city towards the blues.Calling AJ a diver is also bizzare particularly coming from a red which boasts one of the masters of that art in Steven Gerrard which is a shame as he is such a great player without having to resort to conning the referees."remember the opening game of the season at Brammal Lane and the awful dive he done for England more recently".
And has for David Moyes being the king of moaners,that is complete nonsense.Mr Moyes is quite candid compared to the majority of managers in the top flight and never shys away from post match interviews,win lose or draw,unlike the likes of Ferguson and Mourinho who send their assistants out for interviews if a result as gone wrong on the pitch.
I do concentrate on my own team but every one has the right to pass judgement on their closest rivals.I hear kopites pass comments on the blues each and every day and vise versa,it is just the norm.That is the beauty about football afterall.If we all had the same thoughts,both football and life would be quite boring.
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Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
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righteous1
member
Reged: 16/03/2007
Posts: 553
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Quote:
AJ a diver is also bizzare particularly coming from a red which boasts one of the masters of that art in Steven Gerrard which is a shame as he is such a great player without having to resort to conning the referees."remember the opening game of the season at Brammal Lane and the awful dive he done for England more recently".
And has for David Moyes being the king of moaners,that is complete nonsense.Mr Moyes is quite candid compared to the majority of managers in the top flight and never shys away from post match interviews,win lose or draw,unlike the likes of Ferguson and Mourinho who send their assistants out for interviews if a result as gone wrong on the pitch.
Re quote 1, if you care to look at my own thread entitled 'divers' you will see that have listed Stevie G as one of the worst offenders. Just because I am a Liverpool fan, doesn't mean I am blind to some of the negatives. Likewise just because we have a diver in our team, doesn't mean I can't point out that Johnson also does it, despite his managers protestations to the contrary. I am a Liverpool fan, I am not Liverpool Football Club itself.
Re Quote 2, this just shows your own football ignorance. Ferguson sends Queiroz to do interviews with the BBC because Ferguson has fallen out with them, not because he has an agenda to avoid questions. Allardyce at Bolton did the same by sending Sbraglia to BBC interviews after the Panorama documentary. Mourinho has many faults, but being shy with the cameras certainly isn't one of them, and he very rarely sends Steve Clarke to do interviews, win or lose.
Of course you may disagree with me concerning whether David Moyes is one of the worst moaners in the Premiership, that is a matter of opinion and not fact. Speaking of facts, I would look some up if I were you, the cracks in your knowledge are clearly showing.
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stephen_woodside
member
Reged: 02/05/2007
Posts: 1880
Loc: Huyton, Merseyside
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My knowledge of football is just fine and your general attitude regarding your reply,well it is quite frankly a typical response you would expect to recieve from a Liverpool supporter in this city.
Judging any unknown individuals knowledge of the game is in itself ignorant but i have been brought up to withstand the ignorance of individuals who fail to at least hear comments even though not in total agreement of the issues being discussed rather than critise anyone individual simply because you have different beliefs.
That is what should make the beautiful game more interesting,by not agreeing on a certain issue just for the sake of it,without passing judgment if a disagreement should take place.
You have your notions,and i have mine 
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Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
Edited by goldenvision (09/05/2007 19:55)
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RichieC
member
Reged: 17/07/2006
Posts: 534
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eh eh calm down lads calm down...
just joshing...i have scouse blood in me meself...well that's what you get from a blood transfusion off the back of a lorry
sorry, what were we talking about?
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