Sam
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Reged: 12/07/2006
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Loc: North Somerset (returning to M...
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First of all - this struck me, when I saw it, as a rather 'un-World Soccer' thing to do. Lists are fun to draw up and stuff, but surely they should be left to mags like FourFourTwo rather than a proper grown-up publication...
Now, my opinion on the selections (because in spite of what I've just said, debating them is fun).
Pictures: Only a couple of gripes here - first of all where's Pelé clenching his fist, held aloft by Jairzinho after heading in the opener in the 1970 Final? Secondly, the best photo of Maradona from '86 is surely not the 'Hand of God' shot, but the one featuring him on the ball, '10' on his back, with five or six Belgians lined up in front of him looking absolutely bloody terrified. I've never seen any shot that so perfectly encapsulates a player and the effect he had on the opposition even before he'd done anything.
Goals: I agree with comments above stating that Messi's wondergoal against Getafe possibly wouldn't have featured had it not been so recent. Part of me thinks, they come along so rarely that why not celebrate them when they do? But the 10th greatest of all time? Really? Argentina's (it seems a little unjust on the rest of the team to call it only Cambiasso's!) against Serbia might be a bit higher (I await the accusations of bias)... but my biggest beef with this bit: ONLY TWO VOLLEYS?! Zidane and van Basten certainly merit their places in the list for those efforts, but volleys are surely the most beautiful way of scoring goals aside from Maradona/Owairan/Messi-like runs through the entire opposing team. Again, I might be biased, because volleys were the only thing I was ever any good at in school playground kickabouts, but still, only two of them in the whole top 20? I'd happily take out most of those ranked 20-11 and replace any of them with Maxi Rodríguez's winner against Mexico last summer, for which he had a defender on his back, controlled a 40-yard crossfield pass on his chest, taking it away from goal, and then smacked it into the top corner with his weaker foot. It might be the most obscene thing I've ever seen televised.
Matches: I've made my opinions known on the 2005 CL final already, glad to see that Gil at least agrees with me. I'm sure even Righteous, who disagreed so vehemently with me on that other thread, would concede it probably doesn't deserve to be named as the second best match of all time. In the spirit of even-handedness, I'm really not sure our own CL win, in 1999, deserves a place in the top 20 either. Did no-one on the World Soccer staff see the double-header between River Plate and Boca Juniors in the semi-final of the Copa Libertadores in 2004? The second leg of that was absolutely insanely exciting. In fact just about any of River's Libertadores knockout matches (never mind those of the rest of the competing teams!) last year would've been worthier of a place in the list than United v. Bayern - which isn't the same as saying I'd have looked at them in such a list and thought 'oh yes, that game deserves to be there'. But then, looking through, what do we see? The only matches in the top 20 of all time that took place outside Europe, are World Cup games. Even a football-watcher who'd never seen a game played outside this continent would have to suspect there's something just plain incorrect about that. Do none of your contacts in the football magazine world work on publications in Latin America or elsewhere?
Teams: Again, the major gripe is that there's only one non-European club side on there. Peñarol (as Gil says) and the Independiente who dominated the early years of the Libertadores surely deserve mentions. Pelé's Santos might do as well, if it weren't for that fact that they're inevitably now referred to as Pelé's Santos. And given that you've only written about the top ten, and all World Soccer readers can surely remember the French team of a few years ago, would it have been bending the rules too much to drop them to eleventh and bump La Máquina up to tenth, so that the majority of readers could have read about an all-time great side consisting of players they'd probably never even heard of? It would have made slightly more interesting reading.
Alternative World Top Ten: Only one name to mention for this one. The top ten as voted for by readers in 1999: Pelé, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Di Stéfano, Púskas, Best, van Basten, Eusebio. The alternative top ten listed in this issue: Zizinho, Alberto Spencer, Ali Daei, Martin Reim, Claudio Suárez, Hossam Hassan, Obdulio Varela, Elias Figueroa, Duncan Edwards, Mohamed Al-Deayea. So, given that he wasn't voted in by readers in '99, where is Garrincha in this list? Is my copy missing a double-page spread on him following on from the other ten? Sure, a lot has been written about him in the last few years so World Soccer readers and fans in general today are no doubt more aware of who he was than 8 years ago. But if the purpose of the article was to list the best ten players who weren't named in the 1999 readers' poll (and that's certainly the impression I got, albeit that one or two of the players listed are obviously there due to under-recognition rather than actually being all-time greats), I'd say not including a three-times World Cup winner who's held by many (including your own Lord Glanville, if memory serves me correctly) to have won the 1962 WC single-handedly is a pretty big omission...
Sam
-------------------- More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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Carmelo
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Reged: 09/07/2007
Posts: 1
Loc: Europe
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In relation to the 'odd couple' article discussing who was better between Pele and Maradona i genrally go on this basis of argument. Without Pele would Brazil still have won those world cups with all the great players they had such as Garincha, Didi, Jairzinho and Vava? I would think yes. Would Argentina have won the 86 World Cup or Napoli had their success without Maradona? I think not.
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misha75
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Reged: 09/07/2007
Posts: 1
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As a Werder Bremen supporter you should also notice that Mario Basler has scored some stunning goals, much better than some on the list... As for the greatest games... Liverpool-Milan coming second? Come on! Where is an absolutely stunning Holland-Czech Republic match from Euro-2004?
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Mauricio
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Reged: 03/06/2007
Posts: 96
Loc: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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Quote:
In relation to the 'odd couple' article discussing who was better between Pele and Maradona i genrally go on this basis of argument. Without Pele would Brazil still have won those world cups with all the great players they had such as Garincha, Didi, Jairzinho and Vava? I would think yes. Would Argentina have won the 86 World Cup or Napoli had their success without Maradona? I think not.
But are you comparing who was the best player (better skills, top scorer, greatest finisher, etc) or who was more important to his national team?
-------------------- Mauricio Drumond
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IvanTheRock
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Reged: 10/07/2007
Posts: 1
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Hi everybody, I'm Ivan.
I gotta say, I kind of agree with the selections of Best Teams and Best Matches, but I have something to say about the Best Goals one.
I don't know how it's possible to forget the goal Gianfranco Zola scored with Chelsea against Norwich. Was a spectacular goal that Zola scored with one touch directly from the corner, dated before Chelsea were the giant they are now.
Zola Goal
Alsoo I just would like to show some other beautiful goals that are not in that list.
This one Totti did in the last Serie A is as difficult as the one Van Basten did in the Euro Cup Final in 1988. Totti against Sampdoria
This is one of Baggio's most beautiful ever, it's against the Maradona's Napoli in Italian Serie A. Baggio vs Napoli (Camera 1) Baggio vs Napoli (Camera 2)
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barney
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Reged: 08/06/2006
Posts: 235
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That's the first time I've seen that Baggio goal. Spectacular.
It's one way in which our perception of football has changed in the last 10-15 years. I remember when Baggio was regarded as the great young hope for Italy coming into Italia 90, but for people living in the UK, we had no idea what to expect because we'd never seen him play before.
These days, there's so much coverage from around the globe that you don't have any surprises anymore. It was especially noticeable at World Cups when Brazil and Argentina played because many of their players had not played in Europe so they were completely new faces.
While it's great to have the opportunity to see so much football, I can't help but think that something has been lost along the way.
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Masterdam
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Reged: 10/07/2007
Posts: 1
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Seedorf's goal against Atletico Madrid was imo one of the most perfect goals ever made..
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo2ob9N6rPM&mode=related&search=
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jors
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Reged: 10/07/2007
Posts: 1
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I really don't understand why in your Greatest you haven't any mention to the Grande Torino team. They won everithing was possible during the '40ties and were in absolute the best in the world. Differently by the other teams you show in your list they never stop to win (5 consecutive italian championships), they were defeated only by the fate (their plane crashed in the 1949, the 4th of may).
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george_best
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Reged: 10/07/2007
Posts: 1
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I agree with the main decisions you have taken for the three lists, but I want to focus the attention on the selection of the main teams ever .. because there have been so many wonderful goals lost in time like tears in rain .. that it's impossible to share or remind them among the world knowledge of this wonderful sport .. you have just chosen wonderful popular goals! Regarding the goals I will just include Tardelli's goal in the final match of World Championship 1982. For the best teams ever I can agree for the top 10 list, but I will not put the Celtic or Denmark over Manchester United 1968 or Inter 1963-1965 .. and as well I would include Italy 1982 .. they defeated Brasil that is up in 7th position! Regarding the matches I will put Manchester-Benfica 1968, England-Germany 1966 and England-Germany 1990, both in the World Championship.
Thanks.
George Best
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stommas
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Reged: 11/07/2007
Posts: 1
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With "3 Holland 1970" you surely mean the dutch team of 1974, do'nt you?
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MattoGrosso
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Reged: 11/07/2007
Posts: 1
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Hi guys, In my opinion in the the list is missing the team that was defeated only by the fate: "Il Grande Torino". Moreover, how did you select the 10, if you did? The initial selection may be 'biased'.
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johnnysilver
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Reged: 11/07/2007
Posts: 1
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Sorry for my bad english. Here is another vote for Grande Torino. I think you can put that team on first five best team on every time.
Silvano
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Passo
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Reged: 11/07/2007
Posts: 1
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1 Brazil 70: the greatest team ever
2 Hungary 1953: ok
3 Holland 1970: matches last not only 2 minutes (well, in the first minute of the final there was only a team in the pitch, Holland, but does anyone remember Gerd Muller?)
4 Milan 1989-90: great team, but in the last 100 years fog in Belgrade appeared only in 1989)
5 Brazil 1958: fantastic team
6 Real Madrid 1956-60: fantastic team with no opponents
7 7 Brazil 1982: does anyone know Paolo Rossi and the italian team that destroyed Argentina, Brazil, Poland and West Germany?
8 Barcelona 1991-94: great Champions League final in Athens '94 versus Milan, 0-4
9 Italy 1934-38: great team
10 France 1998- 2000: good team
11 River Plate late 1940s: and Boca Juniors and Independiente?
12 Ajax 1971-73: great team
13 Bayern Munich 1974-76: great team
14 Celtic 1967: and Inter Milan?
15 France 1984: good team
16 Denmark 1986: are yuo joking?
17 Real Madrid 1998: are you joking?
18 Totttenham 1961: are you joking?
18 Liverpool 1977: good team
20 Manchester United 1999: I can't stop laughing, there are almost 100 teams better than this Mancherster, for example ManU with Best, Charlton and so on!
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Lenine
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Reged: 11/07/2007
Posts: 5
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This was ridiculous!! How can any respectable list of the best teams ever not include the unbelievable Santos of the 60s? Or Brazil's World Cup team of 1962? You've lost me right there.
And, to make matters worse, the list includes in their place things like Milan's defensive football of the late 80s? Puh-lease... I can only assume this was a move to please European readers, especially Italian ones.
Lenine.
Edited by Lenine (11/07/2007 13:58)
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Lenine
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Reged: 11/07/2007
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Teams: Pelé's Santos might do as well, if it weren't for that fact that they're inevitably now referred to as Pelé's Santos.
Sam
It is quite obvious, since you call them "Pelé's" Santos, that you haven't seen them play...
Lenine
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hartmutw
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Reged: 11/07/2007
Posts: 1
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Big emphasis on the British teams - i wonder why? ;-) Tottenham, Celtic and Liverpool do not enjoy that reputation elsewhere. You could have added Olympique Lyon then as well - 6 times french champion, no international merit.
Regarding nationals, why Brazil 82 or Holland 74 who won nothing? Denmark 1986 - is that a joke??? Why not Germany 1972, maybe even 1990?
Besides these comments, the usual suspects are in which is good to see. my personal fav was france in 1984 with a divine Platini.
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Sam
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Reged: 12/07/2006
Posts: 1063
Loc: North Somerset (returning to M...
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Lenine - you're right, I haven't seen them play. I'm 23, and we don't get much video of 1960s Brazilian football in England (sadly!). I was actually suggesting their inclusion in the post you quoted, though. Merely saying that Pelé's legendary status has probably (unjustly) overshadowed the rest of the team in the eyes of those outside Brazil.
Passo:
Quote:
11 River Plate late 1940s: and Boca Juniors and Independiente?
I've already mentioned Independiente so of course I agree with you there, but Boca? I'm a River fan, I'll say that up front. But without being biased: Four of Boca's six Copas Libertadores have come in the current decade (and the speed at which they lose players to Europe means that no three of these triumphs were really won by 'the same team'). And Boca are a great club, no doubt about it, but one of the peculiar bits of trivia among the biggest football clubs in the world is this: Boca Juniors have never in their history won more than two national championships in a row. They've never had a run of five in six years, as La Máquina did, and they've never won five Libertadores titles in one era at a time when competition in South America wasn't diluted by the continent's best talent leaving for European clubs every summer (as Independiente did).
Boca Juniors quite unquestionably, without a shadow of a doubt, deserve to be known as one of the great clubs in the history of football. That isn't in dispute. But I don't think you can pick out a particular generation (say, four or five years) of their history and say that during that period, they had one of the top twenty teams of all time.
Sam
-------------------- More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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christaylor80
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Reged: 05/06/2007
Posts: 1
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Ok as an Arsenal fan I really want to see some gunner related greatness up there! So I thought, what about Thierry Henry vs Spurs 2002 at Highbury. An absolutely amazing goal, picks it up in his own half glides past 4 players with pace and skill, and then finishes it off with a low curling side foot shot to the bottom corner...sublime. I thought this could replace Messi's goal but I've just had another look and to be fair it is better.
So alas, my only Arsenal link is to but forward Nayim from the half way line in '95!
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finchy24
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Reged: 12/07/2007
Posts: 1
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Top marks for remembering Hungary-Uruguay from the 54 world cup but Liverpool-Milan at number 2?! A case of an incredibly average team being incredibly lucky is my memory of the match. (and no, I'm not a Man Utd fan!) Surely Yugoslavia-Spain from Euro 2000 was a far greater spectacle than Liverpool fluking their way to a fifth european cup?
SF, East Yorks
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foxrocks
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Reged: 20/05/2007
Posts: 54
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Yugoslavia-Spain was a cracking game from a darn good tournament.
Having had a chance to properly read the issue now, I've revised my opinion and unfortunately it's not good. The feature just seems rather bland, basically taking the form of a list with descriptions of what happened. Where are the quotes and opinions from the "great and good" that you surveyed? Surely it would have helped break up the list-like structure of the article if there were intermittent views and comments from individual editorial and sporting voters?
My girlfriend, who has a moderate interest in football and occasionally flicks through my WS issues, was reading the current magazine recently when she called to me, "This 'The Greatest' thing is a bit boring isn't it? It takes up half the magazine and it's basically just a big list." I think that sums it up quite well, really.
Sorry World Soccer, I love you dearly but on reflection I think the feature was a reasonably nice idea that was executed pretty poorly.
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