World Soccer: The Greatest

The above is just transferring part of my own quote from the "summer" thread to put some of what follows into "context".

First a few comments on what WS did include in their lists.

Teams. Nothing much to add that hasn't already been said. I'd put the French team of the 1980s ahead of that of the late 1990s. And I'd put a question mark against the inclusion of the Denmark 1986 team - great as some of their football was - how good were Butragueno's Spain that beat them 5-1 or even the Belgian side of Scifo & Ceulemans that saw off the Spanish? It's hard to comment about the merits of most of the British teams on the list - mainly before my time. Liverpool 1977 (or at least "Liverpool of the late 1970s")OK but United 1999? I might say the same about Real Madrid 1998. Maybe just "better known" rather than "better" than much that has gone before.

Matches. I'd agree Liverpool v Milan is far too high. And I suppose on the whole list it's true (and to an extent logical) that the "occasion" has been given huge weight when deciding the "greatness" of a match. What I mean by this is that there may be quite a few domestic league matches through history - both in Europe & South America - as well as thrilling ties in early rounds of continental competitions that bear favourable comparison as viewing spectacles with the games on the list. But there is no comparison when you take into account the magnitude of the occasion. Are the Finals of competitions really the "best matches" as often as the list would suggest?

Again the inclusion of Manchester United v Bayern on the list is strange. A bit like saying Arsenal-Manchester United (1979) was the greatest FA Cup Final ever because of the last five minutes. Surely United's comeback against Juventus in Turin was far more thrilling for example - but then there seems to be a rule against including games that form part of a two-legged tie...

Another big question mark would have to go against Germany v Italy from the last World Cup. I'm really not sure that any game from that World Cup deserves a place in the list of "top 20 games ever" but surely Argentina v Mexico was the best in the competition in any case...

Goals. I'm less inclined to argue here not because there's no reason to argue but because remembering (& differentiating between) individual moments of brilliance isn't my strength. I leave that to others who are better at such things.

Alternative World top 10. I'd take issue with Sam here not because he's wrong in raving about Garrincha but because I don't think WS's intention is to highlight the "next best 10". Of the players listed only one (Duncan Edwards) made the top 100 in 1999 & - perhaps more surprisingly - only one more (Obdulio Varela) made it into the booklets WS produced in the build up to the "reader vote". For me the pieces on Zizinho & Alberto Spencer are exactly the sort of things WS should be doing in their "historical section". Unfortunately for me the rest of the list failed on two counts. First the reasons for inclusion - which in some cases just seemed to be getting a lot of caps for your country - whatever their level of football. Second - & perhaps more importantly - the lack of depth to the information about anyone except Zizinho & Spencer. I'd much rather see five players covered properly -maybe add Ali Daei, Varela & Figueroa from the eight in the article - than reading very little information about more players which turns into little more than a list. As for players missing from the piece - given what I've already said about Garrincha (yes he probably should be in the top ten but isn't as "unknown" as some) the name I'd put forward would be Eduard Streltsov. Again he's not entirely unknown - his story was covered as part of a BBC documentary & in a chapter in the book on Eastern European football Sam has just started to read but I'd still suggest he's an "unknown great" to most of the football world.

Now - after a longer digression than I'd intended - back to the "alternative approach" I mentioned above. I guess you could call the following lists (of teams & matches - I'm not sure there will be any goals) a list of those I'd either like to know more about myself or like to see WS bringing to the attention of a wider audience - usually both of these things at the same time.

Teams

I'd certainly like to know more about the great South American club sides others have already mentioned on this thread. I also made a note from somewhere (it might even have been this thread I'm not sure!) about the Boca team of the early 1930s...

1. Uruguay - late 1920s & early 1930s. Twice Olympic Champions (when this meant a lot) & winners of the first World Cup.

2. Austria - Hugo Meisl's "wunderteam" of the early 1930s which included Matthias Sindelar.

3. Czechoslovakia - the team that apparently played the most attractive football in the 1934 World Cup.

4. Honved - great Hungarian club side of the early 1950s. I'd add to this a number of "Central European" club sides (Austria, Czechoslovakia & Hungary) prior to the era of the European Cup.

5. Yugoslavia - the team that reached the World Cup semi-finals in 1962. This is the first in a list of teams that perhaps (indeed almost certainly) weren't "the best" even of their own era but were excellent sides that are far less written about (& hence known) than those that were. "Underrated" teams perhaps.

6. Portugal 1966. Perhaps not as "unknown" as some other teams - thanks to Eusebio & the fact they played against England.

7. Peru 1970. The side of Cubillas.

8. Poland 1974. Boniek is always touted as Poland's "greatest ever player" but perhaps their greatest team was in the pre-Boniek days of 1974 when Lato won the Golden Shoe & Poland finished third.

9. Borussia Monchengladbach 1970s - Five times domestic champions, European Cup finalists, twice UEFA Cup winners & twice losing finalists (back when it was often a harder competition to win than the Champions Cup).

10. Huddersfield Town 1920s - first English club to win three successive titles. managed by Herbert Chapman before he moved to Arsenal.

Stephen mentioned the Everton side of the 1980s but - perhaps to highlight the "difficulty" of such discussions. Was that even the best Everton side ever? What about Harry Catterick's 1960s side with the "Three Graces" of Kendall, Harvey & Ball?

Matches

I'm sticking mostly to World Cup games here - mostly from the pre-TV era but also some more recent games I remember personally:

1. Czechoslovakia 3 Switzerland 2 (1934 WC QF)
2. Brazil 6 Poland 5 (1938 WC R1)
3. Austria 7 Switzerland 5 (1954 WC QF)
4. Brazil 5 France 2 (1958 WC SF)
5. Portugal 5 North Korea 3 (1966 WC QF)
6. Hungary 3 Brazil 1 (1966 WC GS)
7. Romania 3 Argentina 2 (1994 WC L16)
8. Sweden 2 Romania 2 (5-4 pens) (1994 WC QF)
9. Spain 4 Yugoslavia 3 (Euro 2000 - GS)

To these I'll add a few games I know absolutely nothing about but which featured in the December 1999 issue as "most memorable matches" from various WS correspondents:

Denmark 4 USSR 2 (1985 WCQ) - Jim Holden
Benfica 5 Sporting Lisbon 4 (1952 Portuguese Cup Final) - Alberto Da Silva
Argentina 2 Peru 2 (1985 WCQ) - Paul Gardner
Japan 3 Iran 2 (1997 WCQ) - Michael Church
E. Frankfurt 1 Duisburg 0 (1975 W. German Cup Final) - Nicholas Harling.

Goals

I'm not sure if this is one of the "greatest ever" but these clips of Franz Beckenbauer from 1966 show a few things. Of course I know Beckenbauer as one of "the greats" but until I recently watched some 1966 highlights that weren't based solely around England's victory I didn't realise quite how good he was that early. See in particular the second goal against Switzerland (the one I'm naming as at least a "contender" for greatness). I also didn't realise quite how good Germany were in 1966 - see the quality of the first goal from a "team" perspective" as well as a number of other clips in the piece.

Edited by badgerboy (14/07/2007 17:18)

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