NulsOB
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Reged: 28/07/2006
Posts: 388
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Messi, if he keeps this up, may just cause us to almost forget El Dios De Futbol Argentina, Maradona. It was just a wonderful game over all for the Argentines. But watching Lionel play last night, it's hard to believe that he only just turned 20.
That said, I've got to bring up a complaint Sam brought up about World Soccer using the name Juan Veron on the cover a month or so back. While watching the game last night on Univision I noticed the announcers calling both Veron and Riquelme with their first name of Juan, so it's not just Europeans doing that, but Mexicans as well. (OK, Univision is the spanish US network, but the announcers are Mexican-American, if not Mexican.)
Edited by NulsOB (12/07/2007 21:13)
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Sam
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Reged: 12/07/2006
Posts: 1063
Loc: North Somerset (returning to M...
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Meanwhile, the Chilean commentators on the stream I got it on appeared hell-bent on mentioning player names as infrequently as they could possibly get away with...
I think one thing we're all losing track of here is the real goal of the match, though. Never mind Messi's, what about Heinze's?! His foot was roughly level with the crossbar when he made contact with that ball, not to mention the fact that had the 'keeper been more committed, either he or Gaby - most likely both - would have ended up in a lot of pain.
Heinze's nickname in Argentina is Gringo. After last night they should change it to Kamikaze.
But in all seriousness Messi's was something else. Never mind the DVD collection when he retires - he's got a pretty bloody good selection if you only count the 2006-2007 season! (If the Copa is included in that.)
Sam
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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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NulsOB
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Reged: 28/07/2006
Posts: 388
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Good point, Sam. Heinze's goal deserves praise as well. If the keeper had read the play better, rather than just the flight of the ball, he could have in fact gotten to the ball before it reached the foot of the Argentine, but there certainly would have been quiet the collision afterwards. Or he could have done even better, and simply gotten in position to block Hienze's shot.
Can't say I blame the keeper, though. It is rather difficult to keep track of two objects moving towards a single point from different angles.
But Hienze timed his run perfectly, and just getting his foot on the ball was amazing enough. After a goal like that, it's hard to believe that it's only his second for his country.
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Mauricio
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Reged: 03/06/2007
Posts: 96
Loc: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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I think we're losing track of the best thing about Heinze's goal - Riquelme's pass. I can imagine them holding a conversation during practice and Riquelme asking Heinze: "Ok, and you want me to put the ball where...? Consider it done". Riquelme is playing insanely well and is conducting the Argentineans to their 15th title.
And about Messi's goal. There's nothing left to say. It was just football in its greatest.
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Mauricio Drumond
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steve31
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Reged: 15/07/2007
Posts: 432
Loc: the wirral
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i am looking forward to tonights final and would expect argentina to win.they have many outstanding players who seem very motivated to win in south america but not so much the world!
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euro 2008 prediction winner
champions league prediction winner 2007-08
premier league prediction competition runner up 2007-08
uefa cup prediction competition 3rd 2007-08
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Sam
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Reged: 12/07/2006
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Well, there it is then.
Disappointing I think, for the competition and obviously for Argentina, but also in some way for Brazilian football - I'm sure this is how those who criticised the '94 side would have feared a team managed by Dunga would play.
Chances taken, though, which was more than Argentina could do. I think the report says it really, so I won't retype it all again.
Sam
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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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NulsOB
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Reged: 28/07/2006
Posts: 388
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As a fan of the Argentine team, a very painful match to watch. As a matter of fact, I turned away from it after Ayala's own goal.
I don't know if you choose the pictures that go with your articles, Sam, but this one certainly sums up the feeling of this game. Zanetti's anger, Heinze and Abbondanzieri’s disbelief, while Ayala lays on the ground, having put the ball in his own net, in shock, staring up at the sky.
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Sam
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Reged: 12/07/2006
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Haha, Nuls - there's one member of staff on my website. My choice is limited by the photos I can find online as I finish writing my articles - which, because they're the only ones who update during the game, means I have to steal them from Olé - but in this instance I thought it summed it up perfectly.
It's also the same picture Olé chose to use on their own front cover!
I've just written this editorial, and would be interested to hear what anyone still reading this thread thinks of it. Needless to say opinion pieces are meaningless nearly all the time, but I hope this one's worth reading if only to tell me how ridiculous I'm being.
Sam
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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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badgerboy
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Reged: 26/03/2007
Posts: 727
Loc: Bucks, England
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Sam
I guess the main purpose of "opinion pieces" is to give people something to disagree with - so I'll do my best!
First - the comparison of Holland from the 1970s with the current Argentina side. I think you start off by answering your own question - in terms of "achievement" at least - a "ridiculous comparison". Two World Cup Finals against two Copa America Finals - both lost against a team that apparently doesn't take the competition too seriously - and a Confederations Cup Final?
Perhaps another important difference though is that the 1970s side are seen - at least in the history books - as the pioneers of a new footballing style - Total Football. The Dutch were giving the football viewing public something they - or at least the vast majority of them (I'll leave it to a proper football historian to discuss where the origins of "total football" might have been seen previously) - were seeing for the very first time. That originality must count for something "extra".
Second - and possibly the bit I have to disagree with most -the implication that - to be amongst the most fondly remembered sides - it's better to be a "good loser" than a winner. In the next paragraph you mention Brazil 1970 - possibly the most fondly remembered side of all...
Personally I think it's a shame for football when one of the teams playing the best & most aesthetically pleasing football doesn't win. Argentina in this Copa of course (though I didn't see enough of the football to judge how "bad" Brazil really were); Argentina again in the 2006 WC - although Spain & even Germany would've been acceptable alternatives and the underrated & too soon forgotten Czech side of Euro 2004. But I think the majority of the football viewing public is discerning enough to appreciate the "best footballing sides" win or lose.
Quote:
Who would've believed in 1990 that the most entertaining international side of the new century would be Argentina?
To be honest I'd probably have still struggled to believe it in 2002. I'd certainly have struggled to believe that four years later I'd actually have quite liked to see Argentina win the World Cup (once England couldn't) due to the quality of their football. I guess this is where our opinions converge - Argentina are the most watchable international side of the current era. I'm sure there's too much "historical bitterness" for a British audience ever to take them to their hearts anything like as much as the great Dutch - or Brazilian - sides of the past. The wider footballing world (and less "jingoistic" Brits) shouldn't have such problems though.
I often hear people (or at least football pundits) refer to Brazil as "most people's second favourite international side" because of the nature of their football. Perhaps based purely on "aesthetic merit" a few more football watchers should be shifting their allegiances westwards...
One last thing. The "want to win, but aren't afraid to lose" quote I associate with Marco Van Basten talking about Holland's chances in Germany - probably in his pre-World Cup WS interview - though I couldn't be sure without looking it up. Of course some TV pundit probably "stole it" and used it in a completely different context later.
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Sam
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Reged: 12/07/2006
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It might well have been van Basten, yes - I certainly think it was a pundit admitting to 'recycling' a quote, rather than coming up with it on his own (after all, which BBC pundit bar O'Neill would do that?!). Wasn't certain enough to attribute it, though.
I didn't mean to imply a side HAS to lose in order to be fondly remembered, it merely seems to me to be the (perhaps odd, perhaps not) case that 'courageous' / spectacular losers (Argentina weren't that, at least not on the day) are often remembered fondly. A sort of 'what if...' scenario.
Obviously I admitted myself that in 'some' ways (by which I meant those of achievement, clearly) it was a ridiculous comparison, but still, glad someone's seen fit to comment on it. Thanks!
Sam
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More fútbol argentino than you can shake a mullet at - Hasta El Gol Siempre
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steve31
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Reged: 15/07/2007
Posts: 432
Loc: the wirral
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i cannot believe how poor argentina were!tevez was awful!whats all the fuss about him!veron played like he was at man u!and as for riquelmes free kicks what do they practice on the training pitch?(chip it to the keeper)i guess ive seen the future in brazils squad players bringing on alves as a sub says it all!
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euro 2008 prediction winner
champions league prediction winner 2007-08
premier league prediction competition runner up 2007-08
uefa cup prediction competition 3rd 2007-08
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Mauricio
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Reged: 03/06/2007
Posts: 96
Loc: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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As I am away on vacation I couldn't get here sooner to make a comment about Brazil's title. And for me it's something to worry about. People may start thinking that this is the best way to play football - the Dunga way. Three holding halves and not a single purely creative midfielder cannot be the best formaion for a Brazilian national team! I am of the opinion that winning shouldn't be everything.
As Italy's title in 82 impressed many Brqazilian managers and led to a change in the Brazilian teams football style, as those managers started playing defensively thinking that playing offensively was not a winning style, I really fear this can happen againg after Dunga. Let's hope not.
I'll still be away for another week (I'll probably be in Estaduio Centenario tomorrow!), and I'll be in Buenos Aires on Sunday. Even though we didn't deserve the titler, it's always nice to win... 
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Mauricio Drumond
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subhankar_mondal
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Reged: 29/08/2006
Posts: 1973
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[quoteEven though we didn't deserve the titler, it's always nice to win...
Appreciate your honesty,man. Still,congratulations on winning the title.
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Subhankar Mondal is a football writer for www.extra-football.com.
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